[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Monday, 19 January 1998      Volume 02 : Number 040

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From: Bill Mixon <bmixon@nine.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:37:11 -0500
Subject: [Baren 170] Re:  This and that... 

<
You may criticize this as being 'theater' or 'entertainment', but I
don't see it that way.  These people are learning just what a woodblock
print really is, and something about how to look at it.  Once they've
learned that ... they want some for themselves!
>

No criticism from this quarter, Dave.  'Theater' is good teaching, and
that's what it's really all about!

Bill

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:29:29 -0500
Subject: [Baren 171] Re: This and that... 

At 02:51 PM 1/17/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Your comments about prints doomed to hang forever on a wall, behind
>glass, untouched, eventually unnoticed and unappreciated, hit a resonant
>spot.  I've always admired the Japanese concept of rotating just a few
>art objects at a time, through the tokonoma (art nook) in the home.  

In my early days of collecting, some 30 years ago, I bought the best print
I could for the money I had, which often was little.  Unfortunately I could
not also afford to have the works framed.  Partly this was the gut feeling
it was silly to pay three times the cost of the print for the frame.
Storing them in a box was not acceptable since art is supported to be
enjoyed.  To solve this problem I had a frame shop design a frame that was
not glued or nailed on the back but had a locking devise, that allowed me
to change prints whenever I wanted.  To over come the problem of various
sized prints, I had four different size frames made and then within those
sizes I used one size mat and simply adjusted the cut for each print.  This
made for some wide margins on some and small on others but the system has
worked well for 30 years and gives me a continuing show as my collection
has grown.  Even in a small apartment I get to view my entire collection
over time.

>Another good way of showing prints, more common in the West, is to
>collect a set of them together in  a case (loose, unbound sheets).  This
>combines elements the bookbinder's art with those of the papermaker and
>printmaker, and optionally the essayist, to create a tightly-integrated
>little tour de force.  To take the prints out of the case (with
>printer's fingers!) one by one, admiring each by itself (in good light),
>then carefully putting it back and going on to the next... I've seen a
>set of 30 block prints, all black-and-white but one, cut and printed in
>South Africa just after Mandela's election, which viewed this way, with
>the accompanying text, had a powerful effect! 

Bill, I understand what you are saying but I have a difficult time with the
continuing handling of prints.  I know that occasionally I go thorugh my
prints just because I want to see them again, special framing aside, but am
unconfortable doing it.  Perhaps I am too much of a clutz to handle prints.
 I would like others to address the idea of handling prints.  Apparently
those of you involved with Japanese printmaking feel this should be
"normal".  Am I misreading this or am i just too "western"?
Ray Esposito

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:58:18 -0500
Subject: [Baren 172] My First Block 

I want to share the misadventures with my first block.   I received quite
an education.  

I discovered the English language is very expressive when it comes to block
cutting.  The word oops seemed to come up quite a bit.  

I also realized I am as heavyhanded with a cutter in my hand as I am with
an axe cutting firewood.  The first half of the block was deeply gouged and
frustrating.  It was a disaster.  Once I learned a delicate touch was
better, things went surprisingly well.  The second half of the block is
night and day away from the first.  Concentraing on that lighter touch is
difficult for an old foggy with heavy handed traits but it was fun.  

Printing was another matter.  I inked the block and little happened.  Once
I solved that problem, I inked the block and got a black blob.  Since it
was mid-night I just laughed and went to bed.  Today, Sunday, I am going to
start all over and I am determined to get a print.

All in all, it was a great learning experience.  One of my major faults is
lack of patience.  I am quickly learning that I better be more patient.  At
my age it will be difficult.  I also realized I should begin with much more
simple ideas.  My first was just too complicated for a first try.

I know rookies should not expect too much and that it takes time to learn.
(Patience again.)  Now on to block two.  Let's hope the oops factor is
lessened.  A final thought - I really loved doing the block, regardless of
the outcome.  Leaning over the bench and carving on the block was extremely
relaxing once I learned to use a lighter touch.  I was so involved in the
process that four hours went by before I even knew it.  Does everyone feel
this?

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:32:42 -0800
Subject: [Baren 173] Re: Barens 

>Matt wrote a long time ago.
>	Can you both get into a few specifics about barens for a would-be
>buyer? (Like where and what?) Dave's prodding has me wondering if this
>beautiful plastic baren of mine is 'not the only fish in the sea for me'.

Sorry for not getting to you on this sooner.  Just to many irons in the fire.

I started out using a inexpensive baren... no actually it was cheap....
$30.00 It was a piece of wood with a vacumn formed pebbly plastic disk that
was then covered with the conventional Bamboo skin.  I thought it was OK
until I used the real thing.
I don't know what the unit is like that you are using.  It must be firm but
resilient with pressure.  The nobby under part (plastic) should be such
that with time the little nobs will ware through the bamboo skin.  Don't
forget to keep rotating the skin so that it wares evenly.

The unit I purchased was $400.00 but not with the actual inner coil of
braided material...(what is that stuff anyway Dave) that forms the nobbies.
The material used in my baren is braided monafiliment line. This is coiled
and adhered to the disk.  Works like a damn.  I have tried the real thing
and quite frankly could not tell the difference.  The price is different
however.  $900.00 is the price I was quoted two years ago.
The disk is made up of multiple layers of paper mache tightly compressed to
form almost a form that feels as tough or ridged as wood.

If you want me to enquire about the $400.00 CAN,  250.00US , job let me
know and I will see if I can get one for you.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:32:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 174] Re: This and that... 

Ray wrote

>To solve this problem I had a frame shop design a frame that was
>not glued or nailed on the back but had a locking devise, that allowed me
>to change prints whenever I wanted.

Wonderful idea.


  Perhaps I am too much of a clutz to handle prints.
> I would like others to address the idea of handling prints.  Apparently
>those of you involved with Japanese printmaking feel this should be
>"normal".  Am I misreading this or am i just too "western"?

Like stamp collectors they use tweezers and gloves.
Why not have a pair of gloves with the collection and an instrument that
allows you to lift a corner so you get the bulky little gloved digit under
and lift the print.

Just a thought.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:32:34 -0800
Subject: [Baren 175] Re: My First Block 

Ray wrote

>I want to share the misadventures with my first block.   I received quite
>an education.
>
>I discovered the English language is very expressive when it comes to block
>cutting.  The word oops seemed to come up quite a bit.

That's not the word I use!

Yes a delicate touch is best. You may not get there as fast but when you do
you will have less oops.

When inking make sure you see a sheen ...not dull not glossy ... and you
have about equal amount of rice paste with pigment and you will get good
results.
I would not concern yourself with results as much as learning and
practise... is the name of the game.

>Leaning over the bench and carving on the block was extremely
>relaxing once I learned to use a lighter touch.  I was so involved in the
>process that four hours went by before I even knew it.  Does everyone feel
>this?

The carving hold a greater facination for me and then the varification
(proofing)  of the plates.
Printing is OK but monotonous after the first dozen pieces.   ....  Sorry
about that David.

Keep plugging Ray.  If you have specific questions don't hesitate to fire
them here.

Graham

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:06:21 -0500
Subject: [Baren 176] Re: My First Block 

At 10:32 AM 1/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
Graham wrote
>When inking make sure you see a sheen ...not dull not glossy ... and you
>have about equal amount of rice paste with pigment and you will get good
>results.

I can see that with you guys I am in waaay over my head.  What rice paste?
What pigment?
I just take water color block printing ink out of the tube and go for it.

This is a good time to bring up something I have wondered about for some
time.  Nothing  I write that follows is to be considered a negative about,
for or to anyone on this list.  I am just curious and want to learn.

It seems to me that the reason for this list is the focus on Japanese
"type" printmaking as opposed to "western" style printmaking.  Am I reading
something into the posts I shouldn't?  Don't get me wrong.  I have learned
move over the few months this list has existed than I knew in the past 30
years about block printmaking.  It is great.  Everyone has been more than
willing to work with a rookie and no one has been condensending, something
I really appreciate.  At the same time, every reference is to Japanese
printmaking.  

When Graham writes about pigments and rice paper, I have absolutely no idea
what in the heck he is talking about.  I can figure it out, namely, using
these materials will be much better and much more "faithful" to the
process.  The instruction books I read say nothing about these materials.
Should I be on another list?  (That's partly tongue in cheek, I learn too
much to drop out, but I do want to make a contribution when and if I can.)

We discuss so many subjects on this list and everyone has been so friendly,
unlike some other art lists I am on, that I wonder if there is a specific
reason for this one?  When Dave started the list, did he think it would be
as wide ranging as it has become and is he happy with the result?  When I
look at Dave's delicate work and Graham's lighthouses, I wonder, just what
in the hell am I doing here.  These guys are pros.  

How important is this list?  At least to me I have saved every post since
number 39 and I reread them often.  (Anyone have the first 38?)  I may not
understand everything but by going back over them, things get clearer over
time.  I am on no other list that I consider important or as interesting
enough as Baren to save anything.

What is the purpose of this list?  I would like your thoughts.

Ray Esposito

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:27:35 +0900
Subject: [Baren 177] Re: My First Block 

Ray wrote:
> I have saved every post since
> number 39 and I reread them often.  (Anyone have the first 38?)

Ray, reading this comment makes me realize that perhaps none of us had
the sense to tell you about the [Baren] Home Page.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/baren/default.html

You can find all the 'back issues' there, along with an introduction and
basic statement of why I started [Baren].  It will answer some of the
points you brought up ...


> It seems to me that the reason for this list is the focus on Japanese
> "type" printmaking as opposed to "western" style printmaking.  

This is just a natural consequence of the interests of both this guy who
started [Baren], and of the people who have gathered around to date.  My
stuff is totally Japanese tradition, Graham's is mostly Japanese, Matt
moves in wider fields but is still grounded very much in these
traditions ...  So, as a matter of course, most of the discussions so
far reflect these experiences.

But in no way do I want to put up a wall and suggest that because you
talked about using a press and inks, instead of a baren and water
pigments, you should 'take off' and go somewhere else.  No No!  A
hundred times No!  

At the moment [Baren] is an extremely young and very small group.  But
as time goes by, and people with other interests come along, I see no
reason at all why our currently limited focus should not widen to
encompass these other types of woodblock printmaking.  If it came about
that the thing started to get just too big, and generated just too much
mail, then at that point it might be worth splitting it up into two or
more groups - one for Japanese tradition, one for press work, etc. etc.


When you said that:
> Printing was another matter.  I inked the block and little 
> happened.  Once I solved that problem, I inked the block 
> and got a black blob.  
... I wasn't sure how to answer.  In that Japanese tradition 'ink'
(usually taken to mean oil-based compounds) is not used.  Our pigment
has a water base.  The methods of application and use are completely
different.

Graham has already given you an answer, but he assumed you were talking
'Japanese', and mentioned rice paste, etc.  If it is the 'water' route
you are taking, then perhaps a look over one of those descriptions of
the process buried in my web site might help ...
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/how-to/mainichi_series_1.html


You perhaps won't 'accept' this next comment, but please believe me that
the process really is very simple, and you will definitely get pleasing
results in very short order.  It's that first step of trying to figure
out just what combination of water, pigment, pressure, paper moistening,
etc. etc. to use.  My first print was the most god-awful blobby sticky
mess you ever saw.  My wife (ex-wife ...) laughed her head off when she
saw it.  But I wasn't going to let this thing beat me, and tried again
...

It sounds like you have pretty much the same attitude. It would be _so_
easy to sit down next to you and _show_ you just what can be done, but
with this text email it's a lot more difficult.  So please read - try -
ask - try - ask ...  

(By the way, if you've moved on to a second block, put that first one in
the post and send it over to me.  I won't laugh.  I'll get out my tools,
take a few impressions from it, and return them to you.  A huge amount
of the artistry in woodblock prints depends on the printer's skill.  At
the moment, yours is rather limited ... I can use my skills to let you
see what sort of image you really have created.  I rather suspect you
may be pleasantly surprised with the results. 

I'm serious.  Please do this!)



> ... Dave's delicate work and Graham's lighthouses, I wonder, just what
> in the hell am I doing here.  These guys are pros.

Ray, we're just a few steps 'ahead' of you.  It's simply a matter of
time.  That's all.


Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:52:10 +0900
Subject: [Baren 178] Re: This and that... 

Ray wrote:

> ... I have a difficult time with the
> continuing handling of prints.  

Not me!  They are objects of beauty, whose sole purpose is to give
pleasure.  That pleasure is best obtained through intimate contact.  

Hold them.  Touch them.  Drool on them!  If they get 'used up' in the
process, then so be it.

I admit that a museum curator can't allow that to happen, and he must
walk on the fine line between 'preservation' and 'use'.   But for those
of us in the real world - I believe 'use' should come first.  I'm not
stupid about this, and I don't mangle and smash the prints.  But I _do_
want them to be appreciated and enjoyed.  And this means getting
_close_!

Dave

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End of Baren Digest V2 #40
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