[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Wednesday, 4 February 1998     Volume 02 : Number 059

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 21:13:18 +0900
Subject: [Baren 314] Re: Printing bench, etc. 

Julio asked:
> I have seen different versions of the traditional suridai
>(printing bench).
> Sometimes it is described as having a sloped surface
>(10-15 degrees) away from
> the printmaker. Is this how you print ? 

Yes.  There's a picture in one of my newsletters that shows the bench:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/hyaku-nin-issho/1993/spring/cover.jpg

> What are the benefits ? (as compared to printing on a
>flat surface).  

This is actually one of the most important points in traditional
Japanese printmaking.  If the height and slope are set just right for
your own particular body size, then it becomes extremely easy to put
full body 'power' into the rubbing.  The pressure doesn't just come from
your hand or arm, but right up from the guts.  

I'm about ready to adjust mine.  It's too high and too flat.  I built it
that way because I just didn't know any better, but also because I
couldn't get my legs to lie flat enough for a 'standard' bench.  Now
after years of practice, it's time to change it.

> Do your japanese printmaker friends work like this ? 

Yes and no.  I know two or three who work only with the low bench, and I
know a few who have switched to standing up.  (But even those guys use
the low bench for demonstrations ... They're obviously embarrassed about
not using the 'real' method ...)

I measured one of the low benches one day.  Here's the data (this is
going to give Graham a fit!)

Height at front edge: 5 'sun'
Height at trailing edge: 3 'sun'
Angle: between 8~10 'do'


I touched on some points about standing/sitting in one of my letters to
my collectors last year ... the 'essay' that went with the second print
in the 9th set ...
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/hyaku-nin-isshu/choose_which_print.html

And I've just put something up on the Encyclopedia about this also ...

*****

Graham asked:
> Can you explain the method of inlaying and what 
> thickness of boxwood are you using?

The piece Shimano-san gave me was about 5-6mm thick, and a bit warped. 
I cut it to the shape I wanted, and then cut a shallow hole in the
surface of the block, shaped to receive it (not very well, I should
mention ...).  I put a light layer of glue on the inlay, placed it in
the hole, and then tied a flat board over top to hold it flat while it
dried.  Somewhat foolishly, I spent a lot of time getting the hole
exactly the correct depth (I didn't want to have to go back to
Shimano-san for any more planing).  

Next year when I do more of this, I'm going to spend more time getting
the edges to match exactly, but less time on the depth.  I'll leave the
boxwood standing 'high' a bit, and Shimano san will trim it down flush.

*****

Graham told us:
> I just got the buy of the decade.  A floor model joiner. 
> 36" bed, 3 knives head, 6'wide for 100 bucks.  

Graham, I think it really _is_ time you switched over to metric.  A
joiner 36 inches long and six feet wide?!?!?

By the way everybody, did you catch Graham's aside the other day about a
twin brother?  Good grief! There are _two_ of them!

(What's _his_ line Graham?)

*****

Julio asked:
> Dave.... one question (is the going price about  435 yen ?)

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean.  Do you mean the
dollar/yen exchange rate?  If so then I see that this afternoon it's
about 1$=127yen.

*****

Dave


P.S.
Just FYI ...
'shaku' = somewhere around 30cm
'sun' = somewhere around 3cm
'do' = degree

When I order blocks from Shimano san, I ask for 9 sun X 1 shaku, 3 sun.

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From: Phil Bivins <pbivins@ac.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:11:02 -0500
Subject: [Baren 315] Re: Theft ... 

I think the idea of an Encyclopedia is a great one. Count me in.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:11:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 316] Re: Printing bench, etc. 

Dave wrote,
>Height at front edge: 5 'sun'
>Height at trailing edge: 3 'sun'
>Angle: between 8~10 'do'

I think you should use a piece of string.

>The piece Shimano-san gave me was about 5-6mm thick, and a bit warped.
>I cut it to the shape I wanted, and then cut a shallow hole in the
>surface of the block, shaped to receive it (not very well, I should
>mention ...).  I put a light layer of glue on the inlay, placed it in
>the hole, and then tied a flat board over top to hold it flat while it
>dried.  Somewhat foolishly, I spent a lot of time getting the hole
>exactly the correct depth (I didn't want to have to go back to
>Shimano-san for any more planing).

You should use a router to establish the depth of hole for the inlay.
I use it to get rid of the waste in large areas on a block.
(Hey guys can't you just see the Grimace on Dave's face. Hell I have
probably spoiled his day...or is it night over there.)


>Graham, I think it really _is_ time you switched over to metric.  A
>joiner 36 inches long and six feet wide?!?!?

Hey if you can spend your life savings on wood, then I can have a six foot
wide whatever.!!!!


>By the way everybody, did you catch Graham's aside the other day about a
>twin brother?  Good grief! There are _two_ of them!

Lucky you guys.

>(What's _his_ line Graham?)

Brewes,  is retired from advertising business.
Lives in Toronto and has for 65 years. Yawn.


>Just FYI ...
>'shaku' = somewhere around 30cm
>'sun' = somewhere around 3cm
>'do' = degree

You should use a piece of string.

- -------------

Have a good day because I sure am.
I am off to gather together fellow artists for a card carrying protest.
It seems that City Hall in Sidney refused to hang an piece of art the was
an abstract of nudes.  If the circumstances are as I understand I will be
there, by myself if need be, carrying plaque cards.

Nudes are not Pornography
No Nudes is Good Nudes for Sidney
Nudes are in the Mind of the Beholder
Naked is Rude ..Nude is Art

Oh ya we's goina have fun with this one.

On this subject of nudes, you seen the latest addition to my site?

Graham

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 11:09:44 -0800
Subject: [Baren 317] cherry wood & newbies 

Dear Baren,
    Recently I purchased (in Berkeley) two pieces of cherry wood 12 inches square by
one inch deep.  Is it possible for a carpenter to slice those in half lengthwise to
make four pieces?  Is it desirable?  The two pieces cost 32 dollars.
Re: newbies encyclopedia.  Newbies would be interested in low cost methods, just
starting out.  I wouldn't recommend spending  16 dollars on a piece of cherry to start
with, although it is wonderful to cut cherry.  When I started, I was asking obnoxious
questions like what can I do about my plywood warping?.  I got some really funny
answers, too.
    Re: encyclopedia.  It is always appropriate to thank people for contributing and
give them credit if it is a big chunk.  It gives credibility to the writing.  But there
is a lot of work in editing, compiling, formatting on to a CD or web site.  So writing
is just a tiny part of it.  The value is in the years of experience of the writers.

    I've been enjoying Baren.  Thanks for urging me to join, Ray.

Jean Eger

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:42:40 -0500
Subject: [Baren 318] Buying blocks, books, etc. 

I just received my McClain's catalog and it is quite a book.  Someone
mentioned this but this issue has an excellent explanation of Suridai
including a drawing of an artist at the table.  Very clear.

Anyway, my question concerns which Shina to buy, 3-ply (1/4"), 5-ply or
All-Shina (both 3/8").  There is quite a difference in cost.  I will buy
what you suggest but don't want to throw money away.  Anyone have a comment
on buying paper from McClain's as opposed to a local store?

To whoever suggested trying the library, I think it was Julio, thanks.  Our
library here in Seminole County is a joke but I was in Orlando on Society
business and stopped in the Orange County Library and bingo.  All kinds of
books.  I could not become a member but can get them through inter-library
loans.

I also found a book printed in 1965 called Ando Hiroshige, The 53 Stages of
the Tokaido.  It is a beautiful book.  Large prints in full color.  I bring
it up because I thought you would get a kick out of the price on the
original dustcover.  Ready for this -  in 1965 - $10.50.  Ahhhh, how times
have changed.  At least I now know what Tokaido means.


Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:44:53 -0800
Subject: [Baren 319] Re: cherry wood & newbies 

Hi Jean,

>    Recently I purchased (in Berkeley) two pieces of cherry wood 12 inches
>square by
>one inch deep.  Is it possible for a carpenter to slice those in half
>lengthwise to
>make four pieces?  Is it desirable?  The two pieces cost 32 dollars.

I have wondered the same question myself and have been tempted to do the
same.  I now look at it this way, if you do slice it in half ending up with
1/2" pieces, will they be thick enough to carve plates both sides and also
will the be stable enough to withstand the rigors of printing.  I personal
don't think so and if I were calling the shot, would leave them as they are
and cut plates on both sides ending up with the same number (4) of plates
that I am sure will standup.


Graham

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From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:44:03 -0600
Subject: [Baren 320] Misc replies 

Thanks to Phil, Graham, Dave, Ray  & everyone for all the feedback on the 
Suridai printing setup.

Dave wrote: (in response to my: Dave.... one question (is the going price 
about  435 yen ?)

> I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean.  Do you mean the
>dollar/yen exchange rate?  If so then I see that this afternoon it's
>about 1$=127yen.

No. This was just tongue-in-cheek, I was joking about your "fee" of $5 per 
question...as per your discussions with Ray.

Jean wrote:
>Recently I purchased (in Berkeley) two pieces of cherry wood 12 inches square 
by
>one inch deep.  Is it possible for a carpenter to slice those in half 
lengthwise to
>make four pieces?  Is it desirable?  The two pieces cost 32 dollars.

Yes (& no). The technique you are talking about is called  resawing. I do it 
when I need hard-to find thin stock (1/8 or 1/4 thick) for my hardwood 
projects. IT IS NOT EASY TO DO !  You can't use a tablesaw because your boards 
are too wide...(and you also would lose 1/8 from the cut of the blade...you 
would be left with two boards about 3/8 thick which may not be stable enough 
to  carve...warpage !).  You can use  a band saw to minimize waste (from the 
blade kerf) but because your boards are so wide....it would take a great deal 
of setup and precision ( and experience!) to keep the blade cutting straight 
thru the whole board. I would get someone who knows what they are doing or you 
will end up ruining your boards. 
 Matt,  Graham; what do you guys think ? 

Jean; why don't you use both sides of the boards ? Is that an alternative ?  I 
visited your site and greatly enjoyed the walk-thru. Thanks. 

Julio

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From: Phil Bivins <pbivins@ac.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:55:59 -0500
Subject: [Baren 321] Re: Buying blocks, books, etc. 

Ray, I have purchased the 5 ply Shina 18x24 in. Also I have just recently
ordered the all shina. I really have nothing to compare it to, well, thats not
all true. I have purchased regular ply wood at the local hardware store and
used that type. I found the surface of the hardware store brand had to be
sanded with a fine sandpaper, to get a somewhat smooth surface. The other
consideration, so I've been told, is the glue used in the Shina is a great deal
softer than the hardware store brand. I really like the Shina over the hardware
store brand, but then you pay for that difference. The Shina is made for
woodblock printing whereas the hardware type is made for building purposes. All
I can say if try it for yourself and see what you think. Its a personal choice
and to some extent a financial one too. Hope this helps.

 Phil

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From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown)
Date: 03 Feb 98 22:57:50 EST
Subject: [Baren 322] Printing order 

Baren,

 John asked about order of printing for colors:
 Like Graham I find its the same as with watercolor "to
keep color layers clean": yellows do well to go first, they are the most
susceptible to 'staining' ( offsetting from previously printed darker areas
affects the color on the block and darkens subsequent prints). While 'building'
a print I start with darker blocks (keyblock, etc.), but when printing I often
do the 'first' blocks last. 

Julio, I work at a sloping bench, seated cross-legged on a low box. For good
concentration and using your body efficiently hour after hour I think this is a
great way to go. Another little advantage of the sloping top: if you knock a
jar of pigment stuff doesn't end up in your lap!

I like Phil's idea of a"Beginner's Mind Journal" for the Encyclopedia.

Julio, thanks for the book references!

To everyone: I am curious of any ingenious methods for drying prints. I have
been having some trouble lately: its very dry in the shop, we are doing a lot
of prints and I guess I'm not leaving them between cardboards long enough to
get down to ambient moisture content.
 What is the key to drying paper? Giving it time? How important is pressure?
How are paper makers (hand or commercial) getting and keeping their paper flat?

Matt

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:15:16 -0800
Subject: [Baren 323] Re: Misc replies 

>Yes (& no). The technique you are talking about is called  resawing. ...

Yep.  Resawing is the way.  The people I get my wood from have a deep
throat band saw....cut 18" .....but the will only cut 2" stock and
sometimes not even that. I purchased last week a piece of Basswood  16"
wide x 36" x 2"  They would not cut it and assure they could get a proper
cut down the centre.

There is however a machine on the market that is a bandsaw used in the
lumbering business called a "Woodmiser"  It is positioned horizontally and
the stock is pulled through.  I have had one of these babies here (they are
mounted on a trailer) to cut Cedar, (16feet x 16inch x 1 1/4" thick with
one knot in the piece) Fir and Dogwood planking from logs.  The fellow
showed me how he could cut 1/8" slab to full length of a log.  Very
impressive.  Hope you can find a source.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:15:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 324] Re: Buying blocks, 

The important advantage with Shina is that it is solid ....no hollow spaces
like industrial type plywood and of coarse it is Basswood made for
woodblockers. It requires very little preparation.  Light sanding and a
varnish (50/50) and start carving.  Oh let it dry it is less messy.  (<:

Now what to buy?

>> Anyway, my question concerns which Shina to buy, 3-ply (1/4"), 5-ply or
>> All-Shina (both 3/8").  There is quite a difference in cost.

It depends on the size you are going to do.  Any thing larger that 9 x 12
block I would suggest the 3/8" stuff.

I have used the 1/4" stuff once and that was for a test piece while taking
from Noboru Sawai. If you use the 3/8" thick Shina you can have a plate on
both sides.  A couple of the plates for Carmanah Lighthouse Print  11" x
17" were made from the  3/8 Shina.


Graham

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:30:54 +0900
Subject: [Baren 325] Home Page update ... 

Earlier this afternoon, I put up a new section on the [Baren] Home Page:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/default.html

It's not something that current [Baren] members will be particularly
interested in.  I'm thinking more of the future, and future beginners
who will come our way. Hopefully this will save us all some time by
answering a few common questions 'in advance'.  As the [Baren] 'archive'
grows and grows it becomes progressively more difficult to find anything
in there.  I will continue to 'lift' things out and put them in the
Encyclopedia as it grows, but this new little page should be a good
'first stop' for people.

I'd also like a favour: I've put a little bit about wood in this new
page, but I need some info on Basswood, Pine, and any other woods you
are using.  I don't want to start blabbing about stuff I've never used. 
Check out the sample I've already put there, and then send me some
comments that I can use on other woods.  (Send to me directly I guess,
rather than bothering everybody on [Baren].  Everybody will be able to
see it once it's up there.)

I also need some info for the Encyclopedia page on suppliers - other
than those in Japan.  I guess this means McLains  McLeans  (whatever),
maybe Daniel Smith, and something about paper suppliers.  This is info
that I don't have myself; you guys will have to feed it to me.  I've
already got the McLains address from your postings, but I need more info
about the place itself.  Again, check the tiny short write-up I did in
the Encyclopedia for Matsumura san's place.  I need something like that
for each supplier.

Again, off-list is probably better I think ... to avoid clutter.

Thanx


Dave

Please don't get the idea from this that I'm going to start bugging you
all the time to write this and write that for the Encyclopedia.  Once
the main structure is in place, I think it will grow well over the years
at quite a natural pace.  But I'd like to get some of the basic stuff
ready before I put it out in the open for the 'general public' to browse
...

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End of Baren Digest V2 #59
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