[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest               Wednesday, 13 May 1998       Volume 03 : Number 154

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From: Blueman <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:54:03 -0400
Subject: [Baren 736] Re: Baren Digest V3 #153 

Baren,

Ray mentioned:

> The printcenter at College of Santa Fe taught me the best way to clean up
> etching ink is with baby oil. 

Ray, I learned this trick, too, when I took a printmaking course or
two at Lakeland College here in Northeast Ohio.  The instructor also
suggested any vegetable oil (which might be cheaper than baby oil).
I've used it a lot.

Ray also said of Dave's website:

> You are putting together a web site that stands alone in its quality on the
> internet.  I know I join everyone else in thanking you for taking the
> enormous amount of time it takes to update and add new things.  As Frank
> Dalton said just before the good people of Northfield, Minnesota blew the
> Dalton and Jesse James gang to hell, "Ain't it a wonderment?"

Dave, I agree with everything Ray said so originally about
your website.  It's a joy to go there.  And it's nice to meet other
people doing the same kind of art and be able to talk to them
via the Baren.

****
Graham, after an unsuccessful outdoor craft show wrote:

> Tonight I think it is a stupid sport and business.

Graham, not everybody can afford good art.  I think probably you
do best in the galleries? No?  I think outdoor craft and art sales
are fun and people do a lot of looking but they buy pottery and
useful items and admire the art and wish.  It's not a stupid sport.
Think of the meaning it gives your life, I know it does.  You 
wouldn't be an artist if it didn't.  

Gayle Wohlken

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:16:21 -0700
Subject: [Baren 737] Re: Baren Digest V3 #153 

Gayle,
It was a tongue in cheek statement.
I have been here for 30 years+ and seen it go from great to disaster.
It is on the climb in some parts of the country and in a few years and
change of local government here it will follow suit.
We have hundreds of empty store fronts here, had many galleries close in
the last few years. There are only two that are at the professional level
and surviving.

I go to these outdoor thingies to meet people and have fun. It is another
way to keep me off the streets.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:22:39 -0700
Subject: [Baren 738] Article 

I have written an article about Giclee reproductions.
It will appear in a magazine here on the Island as well in an artist's
newsletter that goes to many artists in Canada.

It is unrelated to our sport.
Would any be interested?

Graham

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:11:23 -0400
Subject: [Baren 739] Article 

Graham,

I'd be interested in reading  your Giclee article.    Someone asked me
about it several weeks ago, and aside from Patrick's earlier brief
description, I really know little else about it.    

Gary

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:05:28 -0400
Subject: [Baren 740] Re: Article 

Graham wrote:
>I have written an article about Giclee reproductions.

If possible could you scan the article onto your site?  Perhaps the
PRINTS-L list might be the appropriate place since the process has come up
there and they need the traffic.  You would have to do it just once and we
could all see it.  I for one would like to know more about the process.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:58:06 -0700
Subject: [Baren 741] Re: Article 

Gary wrote
>I'd be interested in reading  your Giclee article.    Someone asked me
>about it several weeks ago, and aside from Patrick's earlier brief
>description, I really know little else about it.

This is not technically informative and was never meant to be.  As I
mentioned it is directed at John Q Public and artists. The purpose was to
inform people to be cautious about the product and understand what it is in
relation to the Fine Art field.

Bill Ritchie wrote,
>I'm also interested to know what "island" you refer to.
>I live in Seattle, and weekly I network with a Giclee printmaking expert,
>Steve Rock. He's hosted at DigiColor in Seattle, and his dream is a truly
>free, fine art environment for digital artists--of course Giclee is a
>current focus.

Vancouver Island just north of Victoria near the Airport.
Oh Oh, Bill,  Fine art enviroment for digital artists.  Isn't that a oxymoron.
My 25 years in the lithographic printing business it was never fine art
athough lots of people tried to move it there.  You see there was a lot
more money possible when it was fine art.  Something like an hardware item.
Call it a marine item and double the price.

Oh my, I'm going to be in trouble on this one.
However it could make for an interesting debat....e

Graham

- --------------------------------------

Giclee! The new kid on the block.

Giclee, pronounced 'Jee-clay' is the buz word for the new printing process
that is being touted to be much better in the making of fine art images.

I have researched a number of web sites and seen PR material by artists and
publishers that could be misleading as they are using phrases like, highest
quality fine art prints,  embraced by dozens of museums around the world
and the finest museum archival prints. These were well worn 10 to 20 years
ago. The reproduction business reached a feaverish pitch about 5 years ago
when the  "time limited editions"  were introduced.  This caught people by
surprise, when at the end of the time period, the presold edition ended up
being upward to 70,000 prints. It was the beginning of the end.  An article
in the Globe and Mail, April 30 1994, helped to seal the fate, when it
quoting a Toronto art dealer, "It's one of the worst scams of all".  It was
shortly after, that the market crumbled, and many Art Print stores across
Canada went the way of the Do-do.

What goes around comes around and to-day we might be seeing the resurgence
of the reproduction market with this new technology.  Gicl=E9e, a French word
that means 'to squirt or spray", is produced on an Iris Printer which is an
ink jet printer, (Epson is a small versions of these printers and can be
found in many offices).  The Iris printers are equipped to handle images
that are good facsimiles of the original art they mimic. The producers
state that the material printed on substrate, (which the Webster defines
as, "the base on which an organism lives"), range from 100% rag paper,
watercolour paper, canvas, mylar, translite.  This is possible, because the
ink application is from nozzles, a million droplets of ink per second.
These are the size of a human red blood cell, and are sprayed on at a
resolution of1800 dpi. The resulting print has no perceptible dot pattern,
that is a continuous tone like a photograph. The latest findings give the
fade life of these at 32 to 36 years under normal room lighting.  Compared
to coloured original prints that are upward to 200 years old, it is no
contest.

This new technology produces the most spectacular imaging results, but in
reality, is simply mechanically applied ink on paper, and these
reproductions should not be confused with fine art prints.

Original fine art prints are hand made by an artist and when buying
anything else, be prudent about the price you pay. I can take a scanned
digitized image and get the first large size Gicl=E9e off the press for
$100.00. Add to this: photography, digitized scan, framing and the other
costs related to retailing a product. This can put the cost at $500 to
$1000 There is a lot of original art and prints that are equal or lower
priced that one should consider to take advantage of value growth images.

Buyer beware, the Glic=E9e is sophisticated imagery, yet remains a poster or
Decorative Art.  This a large industry producing interesting Commercial Art
images, contributing to our visual needs of matching our curtains and rug
colour schemes.  The bottom line is that the Glic=E9e falls far short, as do
lithographic reproductions, of becoming a fine art collectable.

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:49:15 -0400
Subject: [Baren 742] Re: Article 

Graham wrote:
>Oh my, I'm going to be in trouble on this one.

You are just an old fuddy-duddy.  Welcome to the club.  You are the most
outspoken proponent concerning this issue but you are not alone in
condemning this garbage.

Reproductions are not an evil thing in and of themselves.  The problem are
promoters and worse yet, artists who claim this crap is fine art.  As a
collector for the past 30 years, I have seen these things come and go and
unfortunately far too many people are taken.  As a collector, I feel this
is nothing more than highway robbery and would not have this crap in my
collection.  I hve visited friends who know of my collection and want to
point out the fine art print they bought.  I hate when they ask my opinion
because I have to be honest without hurting their feelings.

If a person wants to sell reprodcutions that is fine.  I have no problem
with it.  But tell people they are reproductions and let the buyer know
what they are buying.  An imformed buyer is the key.  The problem is, far
too often they are lead down the rosey path.

Another area you have touched on are those artists who reproduce a painting
they have done, a good painting one can call fine art.  They then have
1,000 reproductions printed from it and sell it as a limited edition.
NUMBER 17/1000 FOR JUST $125.  GET THEM WHILE THEY ARE HOT.  ORIGINAL SOLD
FOR THOUSANDS.  THE PLATE WILL BE DESTROYED.  GOING FAST.  BE ONE OF THE
LUCKY FEW.  Lucky few to do what?  Get screwed???? What a rip-off.

As you tell, this has been a life long peeve of mine also.

Good article.  I hope a lot of people read it.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:59:28 -0700
Subject: [Baren 743] Re: Article 

Say Ray,

>I hate when they ask my opinion
>because I have to be honest without hurting their feelings.

Fuddy duddy I know I am, but not a polite one.  When I'm asked my opinion
of this stuff I look em in the eyes and tell them exactly what they have.
Had a plumber in the other day and he started to tell me about the
wonderful Doolittle thing.  After a 5 minute dissertation he was well
informed on the piece of Decorative art they had.   Oh.... they paid
$1600.00 for it.  I asked him to get the toilet installed quickly as I
needed to use it.

Thanks for you comments. I can tell I hit a chord.

Regards,

Graham

How does one know that his bagpipe has been tuned?

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:07:25 -0400
Subject: [Baren 744] Re: Article 

O.K. Graham, I think you're into reruns on your one liners. I could swear I
heard this bagpipe one before.  I was wondering how many of those things
you had.  They are cute though.  Where'd you come up with them,  while you
were floating offshore in your dinghy sketching lighthouses, chardonnay in
one hand, charcoal in the other?  Are you a humorist as well as an artist,
political provocateur, satirist, nudist, author, teacher, lumberjack, print
peddler, plywood-press chauffeur,  and dinghy-sculler? 

Bottoms up!  (Excuse me if that was your nude protest slogan)   Shall we
say, "cheers"?  Keep the keel in the water.

Gary

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:16:18 -0400
Subject: [Baren 745] newbie tip 

One of the more frustrating things about getting started in Japanese
printmaking is the cost.  It is very expensive to purchase the proper
tools.  Dave would tell you to just grab some tools and get carving.
Excellent advice.  But what tools if money is tight.

Among all the tools you need, good brushes are a must.  Good brushes are
also expensive.  Maru Baku can cost $16-$50 or more each.  Includimg
everything else a newbie needs, it can add up.

TIP

Buy a shoebrush.  Shouldn't cost more than $5.  Make sure it is made of
wood for easy cutting, not plastic, and that it has good quality horsehair.
 Do not buy man-made bristles.

Take a saw and cut the shoebrush into the sizes you need.  I made a 3cm,
4cm and 6cm Maru Baku set.  An alternative is to buy individual small
brushes (about $2 ea.) with wood handles and horsehair bristles.

Do they work?  Of course.  Are they as good as those you buy from
McClain's?  Of course not.  But if money is a concern, this is a temporary
step.  When you are rich and famous, you can buy better brushes.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:11:43 -0700
Subject: [Baren 746] Re: newbie tip 

Ray wrote
>Do they work?  Of course.  Are they as good as those you buy from
>McClain's?  Of course not.  But if money is a concern, this is a temporary
>step.  When you are rich and famous, you can buy better brushes.

It is unfortunate the the Japanese stuff is so expensive.
Your idea of using other kinds of brushes is absolutely right on.
Sure you may not get the best technical results. However technique is a
very small part of the creative art we produce.  Sure the good stuff makes
it easier to get the job done.  However the job is the image and the
creation of a visual statement.  I have never been one to be impressed with
technique. It is such a small part of the big picture.

Go for it Ray and you could set us on our heels with some really new and
creative imagery.
Van Gough was a genius...had he not died at 35, just imagine what he may
have created.

Graham

Is mugging a victum upbeat?

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:11:48 -0700
Subject: [Baren 747] Re: Article 

Gary Wrote
>O.K. Graham, I think you're into reruns on your one liners. I could swear I
>heard this bagpipe one before.

Nope. What you read before was;

How do you know your bagpipes have been tuned?
and now I ask;
How does one know that his bagpipe has been tuned?

A totally different tune.  (<:  (<:

I get them here and there and write some myself.

Bye & bye I am all of those thingies.

Graham

Can farcical describe a long bike race?

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:02:52 +0900
Subject: [Baren 748] Re: newbie tip 

Ray wrote:
> One of the more frustrating things about getting started in Japanese
> printmaking is the cost.  

OK Ray, I'll bite at this one ...

If you are expecting me to come down on your suggestion about the shoe
brushes ... then I'll have to disappoint you - it sounds like a great
idea.  I would like to add a few things to your description, but maybe
I'll save that for next weekend's 'one-point lesson' ...

What I _do_ want to 'argue' with is the comment about the high costs of
Japanese printmaking.  This seems to be quite a common myth, and I'm at
a loss to understand how it got started.  There has got to be _no_
printmaking technique that is as simple, low cost, and easy to get
started with than Japanese style printmaking.

Can I throw some facts on the table ...?

I've got my most recent account book here in front of me, going back
nearly five years.  During that time I've made upwards of 6,000 prints. 
Here are the totals (_totals_) of my tool purchases during that period. 
(in US $ at today's exchange)

Bamboo skins: $82.
Pigments: $79.
Sharpening stones: $54.
Oil: $8.
Baren maintenance: $112.
Brushes: $45.
Baren: $375.

Of course I also have some tools 'in stock': a dozen or so brushes, a
package of knife blades, and a few chisels.  But if I were starting up
from scratch today, and had to buy _all_ the tools necessary to make
those prints, I doubt if I would have to spend as much as $600.

$600 to make 6000 prints ... let's see, that's an investment of about 10
cents per print ...

How much do the lithographers and etchers have to spend per print ...? 
I don't have any idea, but I rather suspect it must be a bit more ...


And ... we need no special workshop, no presses, no protective clothing,
no ventilation ...   Just clear a space on the kitchen table and get
going ...

Japanese printmaking is expensive?  


Only in 'time' ...

Dave B.

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End of Baren Digest V3 #154
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