[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Sunday, 31 May 1998 Volume 03 : Number 169 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:11:53 -0700 Subject: [Baren 837] Re: Pigments Matt wrote. > I have been intending to experiment with varnishing and still haven't >done it. Your specifics will spur me on. I am curious: do you feel the >varnishing is more to help with carving or with printing? In what way do you >think it is affecting both aspects? There is no specifics for either. I am blindly doing what my teacher advised. I apply it before carving as it is a base for the final varnishing after carving to protect the removed material. It certainly enables a much smoother and slightly harder printing surface on the basswood. Cherry is harder and probably does not need it. Dave knows more about this I'm sure. Are you home yet Dave. I have found a source for basswood in north-central Ontario. Only ship skids of the stuff. My supplier here is not interested in bringing it in so will be negotiating to see how much I have to buy. The thing that is interesting about this is that wide boards are available. 16 and maybe 20 inch boards. It is a 2000 mile shipping problem. I will keep you posted. Graham ps I'm still waiting for a price on those pigments. ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:27:50 -0400 Subject: [Baren 838] Re: Pigments Matt wrote: > Some time back there was a discussion of pigments for use in hanga > printing....... > One thing these folks are onto is using water-dispersed pigments sold >by a NYC company called Guerra Paint and Pigment. (Keiji Shinohara also >uses pigments from these people.) Has this source come up on the Baren >previously? For myself I have been using mostly dry pigments bought from >Kremer Pigments, but will report on future experiments with the water- >dispersed pigments from the Guerra people. For interested parties, Guerra's catalog can be gotten by calling 212 529-0628 or save the long distance and use their e-mail at guerrapaint@mindspring.com. Kramer's telephone number is 212 219-2394. I do not have e-mail for them. I look forward to Matt's report on Guerra's pigments and would like to hear more from April. In particular, for us Newbie's what would be the basic palette suggested since these things are expensive and they have 200 colors. Also, they list organic and inorganic depending on the colors. Can anyone enlighten me as to what they mean by these terms? >Another thing I noticed was that April (and Bill also) has settled on what >seems like a very good paper, bought from Yamada Shoki, in Tokyo. >Perhaps April has already contributed specifics of this paper to the Baren. I >have not used it myself, it is of a heavier weight than that made by Mr. >Yamaguchi and Mr. Iwano. Matt or April, could we get more info on availability such as address, color and cost? >Graham, > I have been intending to experiment with varnishing and still haven't >done it. Your specifics will spur me on. I am curious: do you feel the >varnishing is more to help with carving or with printing? In what way do you >think it is affecting both aspects? Matt, I look forward to Graham's answer, particularly as to printing but I can tell you that my first block using the varish is more difficult to cut. That is not to say, too much so. I am using Shina and I am meeting just a little more resistance. I like this since I find I am slipping less and not overcutting as I was with my first blocks. A vast improvement. I have no idea what effect it would have on other woods like Basswood. Thanks for the info. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Phil Bivins Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:09:26 -0400 Subject: [Baren 839] Kitakata paper I remember several weeks ago someone was using kitakata paper and how much they liked it. Elaine, from McClains sent their new catalog. They now carry kitakata and mulberry paper. Cost is about around $2.00 and $4.00 per sheet. I have not used it yet but will let you know how things worked out. Phil ------------------------------ From: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu (Sheryl Coppenger) Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 17:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baren 840] Re: Pigments Matt wrote: > On workshops: I teach a workshop two weeks from now out in western > Mass. at a place called Horizons Craft Center, June 13-15. I think there is a > place for one more in the class . . . (info you could get by going to The > Calendar on my web-site, www.ooloopress.com) Darn. I'm out of annual leave for this fiscal year (we run July 1-June 30). I took a look at your web-site and really enjoyed your prints. I'm probably not going to be able to get to another workshop this summer anyway. I'm signed up for a Carol Wax mezzotint workshop in July. We can't really take vacation in August because of preparations for the Fall semester. But it's good to learn about these other places and people teacher workshops because there's always next year if they don't come around off-season. Sheryl Coppenger ------------------------------ From: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu (Sheryl Coppenger) Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 18:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baren 841] Re: Pigments > I look forward to Matt's report on Guerra's pigments and would like to hear > more from April. In particular, for us Newbie's what would be the basic > palette suggested since these things are expensive and they have 200 > colors. Also, they list organic and inorganic depending on the colors. > Can anyone enlighten me as to what they mean by these terms? Well, it doesn't have anything to do with whether pesticides were used. :-) Pigments come from different sources. An extreme example of an organic pigment would be porphyry, which is no longer used. It was a purple pigment made from the blood of a meditteranean mollusk. Apparently some european royalty still have "porphrygenite" (born to the purple) in ceremonial titles because the pigment was so expensive only royalty could wear purple. Another would be rose madder, which actually was made from roses IIRC, or sepia, which was made from squid ink. Cremnitz white (flake white) would be an inorganic pigment made from a mineral. One isn't necessarily better than another, although some unstable organic pigments have been replaced by more permanent versions which are man-made. Some inorganic or mineral pigments also have been replaced by pigments which are more stable/permanent, less poisonous, less costly, etc., but the name has not necessarily been changed to reflect that. The National Gallery of Art puts out a series of books which have more info on pigments than any artist probably can use. :-) The Ralph Mayer book on artist's materials also covers organic vs. inorganic, permanency of pigments (it varies by medium, some pigments are stable in oil media but not in water and vice versa, some are ok individually but can't be combined). Sheryl Coppenger ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:50:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 842] Re: Pigments Hi everyone. re the following. >One thing these folks are onto is using water-dispersed pigments That is what I use and need only 7 colours. One of which is white. Just called Mike Turner the person who was pricing the stuff, but away for the weekend. I'll bug him next week. (One thing about being a frog....you eat that which bugs you.) >Also, they list organic and inorganic depending on the colors. >Can anyone enlighten me as to what they mean by these terms? I don't know the techy terms for the pigments. However as I learned away back I can't remember when ...Organic is from plant and veggies. Inorganic....well that could be animal...mineral...or man made dye I suppose. i.e. Thalo is a man made colour. Grumbacher uses this name for many of their pigments. Winsor Newton uses the term Winsor to define their man made dye colours. Winsor Red, Winsor Blue Winsor Green etc. >Matt, I look forward to Graham's answer, particularly as to printing but I >can tell you that my first block using the varish is more difficult to cut. Interest Ray.....Since I have never cut a block without varnish I could not make the comparison. Well done. I could not tell you the comparative result of printing on vanish and non-varnish plates as I only know the right way (<: .... with varnish. The results in carving will be the same when you use basswood blocks. TFN Graham ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:52:43 +0900 Subject: [Baren 843] I'm back ... Was it really only two weeks that I was away? It seemed like much longer than that ... days and days of wandering around England - hiking up in the Lake District, visiting my parents, and then running this way and that all around London, trying to visit all the print museums, print libraries, and print shops in the few days available ... I'll save you all the boring details about the hiking and the family ... but I think that as there may be a bit of interest in some of the other stuff, I'll 'report' on it bit by bit over the next few days. Here's the first one ... *** The Print Room at the Victoria and Albert Museum I only had a couple of hours in here, but next time I go I'm going to try and set aside a week or so for this one. Here are a couple of quotes from their information pamphlet: What is the Print Room? > The Print Room on level 5 of the Henry Cole Wing is the > place where you can look at and study the thousands of > works of art on paper in the Museum's collection. Works on > paper fade and deteriorate when in the light so they > cannot be exhibited continuously. They are, however, > freely available on request in the Print Room. The Print > Room is thus in effect, a gallery, but one in which you > choose what you look at from the huge range available. What does the print room offer? > Close personal contact with great works of art > You can look at objects for as long as you want while sitting in comfort > You can ask for assistance if you are unsure of what you want to see > You can browse through indexes of the collection, arranged by artist and subject > You can refer to the books in the Print Room's library > You can consult microfiches of especially popular parts of the collection > You can copy objects provided sensible precautions are taken > You can photograph objects yourself, again subject to certain rules > You can bring objects for opinion, provided they are reasonably within the expertise of the department They apparently have more than 1,000,000 objects available here ... I only saw a few dozen ... The room is open to anyone, and no special introductions are necessary. You must sign-in at the door, and you are then free to browse the catalogues, write out a request slip for the item(s) you wish to see, and then sit and study the prints they bring you for as long as you wish. The staff was extremely friendly, and although I didn't meet any woodblock specialist there, they did seem very knowledgeable about prints. I came across one of the books that I had been looking for (for the Encyclopedia), and one of the staff members, Mr. Michael Snodin, photocopied it for me while I waited (with no charge ...). One thing I was astonished to learn was that you may photograph the prints if you wish. I had never dreamed that such a thing would be possible, so hadn't even taken my camera on my visit that day! Next time ... There are no Japanese prints in this department, as the V&A has a separate department for those. The prints I chose for viewing during my short visit were some of the people in the 'Turn of the Century' section of our Encyclopedia: Giles, Verpilleux, Seaby, etc. I also had a look through a box of printing plates and tools left to the V&A by Giles specifically so that 'future' printmakers could get an idea of his working methods. His 'baren' made of ribbed glass with a wooden handle glued on was very interesting ... Anybody with an interest in prints would be foolish not to visit this room anytime they were headed to England. Easy access ... knowledgeable and patient staff ... and a million prints ... Maybe if I'm a good boy, this is where I'll go when I die ... *** Dave B. and now ... let's have a look at that 'Inbox' and see what [Baren] has been up to while I was away ... ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:01:50 +0900 Subject: [Baren 844] Re: various It seems that most of you have been sleeping for the last couple of weeks ... or maybe busy in the workshops - I hope! April wrote: > I mix them with a little gum arabic and glycerine, and > calcium carbonate for opacity ... > > I am unclear whether the traditional recipes call for any > binder...sumi has animal glue in it, do the other colors? The use of gum arabic has been touched on a bit in past postings, but has remained a bit vague. I've been asking around about this recently, and have found no consensus on the use of such binders with pigments here. It's certainly not absolutely necessary. All the pigments in common use (such as those I listed in Matsuzaki-san's collection) will produce a beautiful impression without them, provided paste is used when making the impression. I've been told by a couple of people that they use gum arabic only for those pigments which do not _remain_ dissolved in water. After the pigment is ground (perhaps with alcohol to dissolve it properly) and then diluted to taste, the gum arabic is added in order that the colour will not start to precipitate in the bowl during the printing process. Once this binder is added, the pigment remains in a smooth consistency for as long as needed ... *** >My question about Mr. Keizaburo Matsuzaki's system is >whether he is paying attention to the lightfastness of the >pigments. The books I have on the subject all warn against >using indigo, for example, which will fade away in the >light. Indigo _will_ start to fade eventually. We who work in this traditional Japanese field accept this as part of what a traditional Japanese print is. Most of us here read all that stuff about 'lightfastness' and just shrug our shoulders. Yes, prints fade. And ... they become more attractive as they do so. If you've read anything about the 'wabi' / 'sabi' sort of Japanese ideas, you will be familiar with the concept that a 'patina of age' on an object can add immensely to its beauty. A balance is necessary: we don't use the extremely fugitive types of pigments that were sometimes common in the past, and which would fade away in the first few days of exposure, but neither do we spend much time in the ultimately futile search for 'permament' pigments. *** Ray wrote: >Do any of you color experts know which colors to mix, in >what order and percentages of each to come up with a satiny >gold. I keep getting a dirty yellow instead of gold. Gold is funny stuff, as is silver. I don't know what the colour theory people have to say about these two, but there just doesn't seem to be any way to create them with 'normal' mixing procedures. A number of things are used here to create a 'gold' impression: (1) Gold leaf. This can be applied to the face of the paper in a number of different ways, and one of the more quiet [Baren] members is preparing something for us on just how to do this. Please be patient ... (2) Mica powder. This is actually a silvery colour, being made up of very finely ground mica, but when applied over a gold-coloured (yellow) base colour, its 'sparkle' gives a very rich gold impression. An Encyclopedia page on how to do this is on my list of 'things to do' ... but not particularly near the top ... (3) Any one of a number of modern 'pigments'. One in very common use here is Holbein's Acryla ('Acrylic Polymer Emulsion Colour'). I use the tint called 'Pearl Gold' - a mix of mica and titamium dioxide. It's water soluble and can be printed in the traditional way, with brush and baren. It produces a beautiful satiny gold effect ... *** Graham wrote: >I finally got some more scanned WB images. >I have just loaded a new one my site. Nice new layout! Interesting to see someone working with a horizontal approach to web page design, instead of the common vertical layout ... What is 'Autocratic Automation'? Something to do with 'Giclee prints' I bet! *** >My name is Sheryl Coppenger ... Welcome to the group, Sheryl. Your work looks very attractive, and it's going to be interesting seeing what you come up with in woodblock ... Did you keep a set of progressive proofs of your 'pigeon' print? I'd like to do an Encyclopedia page on the reduction process, and these would make an excellent example ... *** Dan wrote: >Dave will have to confirm this, but according to my wife >who as an art historian focussing on Edo Period prints is >often asked by American collectors to look at their prints, >earlier this century some prints were reproduced by inking up >woodblocks and transferring the various blocks to litho >stones... This is a new one to me Dan. I've read about different methods of transferring images to litho stones, but have never seen a Japanese print made this way. The final print would certainly have a different appearance, with the impression being made under the litho 'bar' instead of with a baren ... let alone the difference in pigments (oil? water?). *** Various people wrote about varnishing ... I have never tried this, but remember seeing some of this done at the Yoshida studio a number of years ago. They were doing some proofing for a new design, and this involved making a bunch of trials using different colours. In order to avoid colour from the previous trial coming through again on the next printing, they first coated the wood with a substance called 'Ligroine'. With wood covered in this stuff, the pigment apparently didn't sink in too deeply and the block could thus be washed quite clean, ready for another proof with a different colour. My own experience tells me that once a raw block has been printed in a relatively deep and dark colour, it is next to impossible to get all the pigment out of it to print with a contrasting light colour. As to the relative merits of raw wood/varnished wood, I have no experience other than to say that it is certainly not a common practice here ... *** In other matters, I got a notice from Carl Homstad letting me know about updates on his web site: http://www.salamander.com/~homstadc/ (If your keyboard doesn't have the ~ mark, use %7E instead, like this: http://www.salamander.com/%7Ehomstadc/ ) Interesting new prints ... and he also has a new section on techniques, which I think he will be letting us use for the Encyclopedia too. *** And finally, I mentioned that Michael Snodin at the Victoria and Albert Print Room had made a photocopy of an old book for me ... I couldn't really sleep well last night (because of the time zone change) so I spent a bit of time at the scanner instead ... The book is now in the Encyclopedia library - Colour Printing with Linoleum and Wood Blocks, Allan W. Seaby, 1925. It's a bit old fashioned, but the introduction has many things to say about proper designing for this technique. I think you might find some of it interesting ... Thanks Michael! *** And _now_ I'm ready for a bit of a snooze ... Dave B. P.S. I wonder how many of you 'murricans' understood Graham's TFN comment at the end of his posting yesterday? Any guesses? ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:34:04 -0400 Subject: [Baren 845] I'm back ... Welcome back Dave, The mark of a good vacation is returning with the sense that you did not have enough time to enjoy everything you went to see, nor do everything you went to accomplish. It sounds as if a few years may have been required for you to do that. It's nice to have you back, and we'll look forward to the benefits of YOUR vacation as they pertain to us. Gary ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V3 #169 ***************************