[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest                Monday, 20 July 1998        Volume 04 : Number 219

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:40:46 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1195] Re: "Computer Art" 

> I can only surmise that someone so adamantly against doing some of one's
>work on a computer, is an old stick in the mud, tied to established
>methods, and who has never seen an art program or seen what advantages it
>has to offer.
Say What!
I have used a computer since 1984 starting with a 128 K Mac.
I now have a Power Mac and have most of the important graphic programs.
I use it to create commercial art....My promotion stuff.
I use to have a drawing tablet and fooled around with it until I realized
this was doing nothing for my skills and the plateaus I wanted to reach.

>Do you burn the wood to charcoal and process a stick of it
>if you wish to go out and do a charcoal sketch?
Say What!
Yes every winter when I heat my studio with a wood stove.  The best wood
for charcoal is Willow.  I will send you the technique if you want to know.

>Do you personally mine and ground your own pigments from the earth's
>minerals and biological sources for your woodblock printing?
Say What!
Yes been there and done it....but not for woodblock printing.  Too messy
and not a healthy sport, so passed on that. It was a required exercise in
Art School.

> Do you make your own woodblock printing paper from scratch?

No, but only because the average Joe does not have access to the Kozo fibre
and proper water to achieve what it has taken a family of papermakers 200
years to perfect. Mind you I have the offer from my teacher Noboru Sawai to
do just that.  I may take him up on the offer in a few years by going to
Japan and participate in the exercise.

>I suppose that each time a new thing or process comes along, it faces
>just such a strong prejudice.
Say What!
Just finished a workshop at the U of Victoria in Waterless Lithography
given by a Tamarind Master Printer  The newest thing out there these days.

>Whether you use brushes, pens, pastels, oils,
>acrylics, woodblocks to express your art, they all have technical
>challenges which must be mastered.  A computer is no different.
Say What!
Oh yes it is..... The changes on a computer of 10 fold easier to make. To
change a simple graphite pencil line always leaves a blemish. Too many
changes with any medium leaves tell tale marks that can spoil a work of
art.   That is not a problem with computer art....you can change tell hell
freezes over and it does not matter nor does is show.

>It is quite a sophisticated tool, and as any tool, is only as good as
>its user.  So if my art work is substandard, it is not because I use a
>computer, but simply because I haven't mastered the media yet.

You missed the point. Let me say it LOUDER and clearer.

Fine art takes time to evolve.  The development of the image must have
emotion which comes from the artist's soul. This happens when the sensation
and smell of the medium on the paper transmits through the fingers to the
heart and brain.
AND
Computer art is like a type written letter
Fine art is like a hand written letter

YOU WERE SAYING!!!!!!!  What?

Graham

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From: Elizabeth Atwood <elizuno@midcoast.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:11:25 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1196] Computers 

Gary and Graham.........I agree with you both in regard to the computer. Is
that possible?
Recently, in preparing for a miniature print show, I have been scanning up
images to adjust sizes for my requirements. The computer has been a
god-send.

I maintain that there IS such a thing as "computer-fine art" but until it
is really recognized, we will not have the opportunity to make a proper
judgement. Graham is probably coming close, or doing to it, with his
commercial art because he is a "true" artist.

Remember we went through that terrible period when the art schools were
teaching only an abstract approach. The poor students had to go back to
school later to learn to draw.
As a once upon a time architectural designer and drafter, I have seen that
work go to the computer. The results will never have the quality and beauty
of line that one finds in hand work. I once had a machine shop client that
asked me to redraw all their working plans because I made those nuts and
bolts look so beautiful. Go figure! (They have since computerized.)
With computer art, I thought the biggest problem was the lasting quality of
the printer inks........what about that?...........

Bettie

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:21:08 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1197] Re: "Computer Art" 

Louder is not necessarily clearer.   You are missing my point, I think. 
There are two sides to a print, what the viewer sees, and what the artist
puts into it.   You, obviously, put a lot into it.  Your viewing public
will probably never see much of that from your print unless you are there
to tell them.  Your work has a life of its own, and the viewer will see
what lies on the surface, if you are lucky, and not much beyond.  It is all
on that surface that the communication between souls take place.  You feel
that if the paint is oozing out of your ears and you carve your blocks with
your fingernails, you will convey a much deeper experience to your
audience.  Perhaps.  

I contend that the surface of the print does the communicating, and
whatever means you can find to use which clarifies that communication of
your art to a viewer is a legitimate tool to use, and ought to be taken
advantage of.  Simple as that.

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:46:15 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1198] Computers 

I think we are heading off down the wrong road on this "computer art"
thing.  I am not advocating computer prints as fine art, never have.   I am
beginning to see some possibilities there, but not in the traditional
sense.   I love having my prints done in the fine traditional Japanese
method because there is _nothing_ like it anywhere else.  I love the look,
the feel, the whole experience of that "hand-made" art form.

I do believe someday there will be computer artists who achieve worldclass
stature, because I am beginning to see the tremendous possibilities of this
tool.  But where it excells in one area, it may well lack in human feeling,
the stuff Graham is talking about.   Although, now that I think about it,
there is no reason it should.  A medium can be pushed to express pretty
darn well what a competent artist wishes it to express.  If your favorite
masterpiece were scanned and displayed on your monitor, can you still not
see the beauty of it?  True, a woodblock print has features that do not
carry well onto a monitor, but perhaps someday that will be perfected.  If
you can see it on your monitor, it could be created on the monitor, and a
computer artist could conceivably do some pretty powerful things that would
in their own right be masterpieces.  After all, there are masterpieces in
all other media, it's just a matter of time before there are in computer
art.   And, all other media have their own characteristics,  advantages as
well as disadvantages.  

My point, however, is that a computer can be used in woodblock preparatory
work quite interestingly.  Graham disagrees, and that's fine.   

I'm not sure how to read that "true artist" comment, though I certainly do
not dispute that Graham is one. What a "true artist" is however, could well
be the subject of another debate.

Gary

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1199] Re: Water-based Inks 

Naresh Sampat of GreenDrop Ink wrote.....
>In the interest of both Green Drop Ink Company and Baren Group, I offer to
>provide 'AquaGraphic' Relief Ink samples at no cost to a 'Baren' printmaker

Dear Naresh.

I understand you have had communications with Tamarind  Master Printer,
Frank Janzen.  Frank lives here on Vancouver Island and I had the opportunity 
to meet him recently.

He showed me a few of the water base inks he is experimenting with for
waterless litho.
We wondered if they would be suitable for woodblocks.

I gave them a test by smearing them with a knive on a card and next to them
I did the same with the waterbase colourant I use. I noticed that the
intensity of your ink was not as great as mine which come from:

Mike Turner.
Fine Line Painting and Decorating Company
Victoria B.C.
fineliners @msn.com

I have to admit that I prejudged them on the basis of my little test
strips.  Have you any experience with your pigments in woodblock
printmaking on Hosho paper.

Regard

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:36:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1200] "Computer Art" and inks 

> You feel that if the paint is oozing out of your ears and you carve your
>blocks with your fingernails, you will convey a much deeper experience to your
>audience.  Perhaps.

Try it you will like it.

I guess you have to determine who your audience is.
Some artist persue organizations and enter many many shows looking for
awards. Then the public will come
Mine is now the Provincial and National galleries in Canada.

>I contend that the surface of the print does the communicating, and
>whatever means you can find to use which clarifies that communication of
>your art to a viewer is a legitimate tool to use, and ought to be taken
>advantage of.  Simple as that.

I guess it depend if the "tool" is an aid or a crutch. That's the simple
matter of it all.
I have a friend in Victoria who has a severe handycapped and has to use a
computer to create his images. He does wonderful work with this tool.

Elizabeth wrote
>As a once upon a time architectural designer and drafter, I have seen that
>work go to the computer. The results will never have the quality and
>beauty of line that one finds in hand work.

That is what this is all about Gary.

Elizabeth wrote
>With computer art, I thought the biggest problem was the lasting quality of
>the printer inks........what about that?

The same friend uses a Epson 800 for printing his work and sells it as
digitized imagery.  Quiet beautiful.
He has tested the ink for light fast and after extensive sunlight tests he
claims the are light fast under normal room lighting.

Regards

Graham

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From: Becky or Roger Ball <beckorro@inquo.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:41:08 -0600
Subject: [none]

Man, Richard...Read Back!
I was only _asking_ about Hideshi's use of Liquitex.  And he's doing a damn
fine job with them I might add.  I may be non-traditional, but it wouldn't
occur to me in a thousand years to use acrylic.  You owe it to yourself to
look at his work.
I've already been reamed for using Speedball and feel free to continue that
until I actually produce a water color!  I'm working on it.
Previous work at http://www.inquo.net/~beckorro/woodcut/woodcut.htm using
that evil rubber-based speedball.
Currently working on pastes and pigments and moisture level.
Cheers!

- -Roger

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From: Bill Ritchie <ritchie@emeralda.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:37:19 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1202] Re: "Computer Art" 

Gary wrote:
>Does anyone else out there use a computer in their preparation of sketches
>for woodblock prints?

Hi Gary and the others who use computers in some way connected with
woodcut. My 2-centsworth:

In my opinion, the computer opens a gateway to another kind of art form,
and its qualities are many, and we who work in synch with its invention may
not know what those are.

Maybe the next generation will look at it and find, in the labyrinth of
printmaking, artists whose imagery would not have been possible without
computer experiments, yet that imagery would have been impossible to see
without woodcut.

I used to get into difficult arguments with people about the connections
between so called electronic media such a video and computers, and
traditional media such a printmaking and painting.

To this day, I don't understand the heat that seems to come into the
dialogs. The currrent one helps, a little. I found solace (as my passion
for both electronic and handmade forms will not abate) in the decision that
my video and computer work is not visual art.

That took all the heat out of the debates and problems that people seem to
see in comments like yours, Gary. I, too, found it interesting one time to
use a computer printout to start a print.

I was working with a thirteen year old once whose parents would not let her
do etching or other metal intaglio prints because it was dangerous. They
wanted her to use safer materials. But she wanted to use her parents
etching press, having seen them use it.

When they were not looking, I asked her to print out one of her geometry
assignments from her computer onto a mylar sheet. You know, the kind they
make overhead transparencies with. She did, then I asked her to scratch the
design with a drypoint needle.

Meanwhile, I softened some intaglio ink, and when she brought me her mylar
drypoint, I inked, wiped and printed it. She was unimpressed, but then she
said, "Couldn't you do the same thing with a piece of paper pasted to a
woodblock?"

I don't know if you see what's going on in this little story, but to me it
isn't visual art. Some kind of lesson here that points us to the future, I
think.

Thanks for reading this far.

- - Bill

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1203] Re: Computers 

Gary wrote...
>I'm not sure how to read that "true artist" comment, though I certainly do
>not dispute that Graham is one. What a "true artist" is however, could well
>be the subject of another debate.

I look back to find where "true artist" phrase came from.  Damned if I know.

Be that as it may.  I don't think this is the time nor the place to debate it.

Have a good day, evening, night out there in Baren Land.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:50:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1204] new image. 

I have posted a new image
go
http://www.islandnet.com/~gscholes/

enjoy

Graham

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:12:20 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1205] Re: "Computer Art" 

I'm not sure I understood your point here, Bill, so that, and the fact that
my power may cut out at any time will abbreviate my response.   We've had
100+ temps today and everyone's a.c. is sucking up all the power.  Mine has
gone out three times and may again at any moment.  So I'll respond another
time.

Gary

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1206] Re: "Computer Art" 

Gary wrote...
 > We've had 100+ temps today and everyone's a.c. is sucking up all the power.

Now I understand the postings re "computer art" .... you've had a heat stroke.
Thanks goodness it is not serious Gary, you gave me a terrible fright.

Graham

ps. Sorry this is not a techy thingy.  I have stepped out of line here. It
won't happen until......

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From: Hideshi Yoshida <dodoland@silver.plala.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:44:54 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1207] How to print with acrylic . 

Hello !!

  I'll explain how to print with "Liquitex".
It is very simple , when I use Liquitex I add "Gradation medium" to it .
This medium makes Liquiyex dry slowly .
After that I print with it  exactly the same as ordinary way, spreading it
with a brush and printing with a baren.  That's all!!
  However Liquitex is not good pigment for woodcut print because it dries out
very very fast .
After it drys, it becomes water-repellent. If you forgot to wash your
woodblock, you would have to carve another new woodblock , so I don't 
recommend  it .
  My first challenge was unsuccesful, so I stoped using it for 2 years.
But I had felt it was better for my work and was close to my ideal color.
So I tried again and now I can control it well.
  If you tried it, you would fail and spoil your woodblock .
There is a knack to it but I can't explain it in words .
I think only a lot of experiences let you be able to control Liquitex .
Good luck !

Gary : The software program I'm using is Painter 4 and Poser 2 .
          They are good and useful software .

Hideshi

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End of Baren Digest V4 #219
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