[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Wednesday, 5 August 1998      Volume 04 : Number 235

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From: amoss@mindspring.com (John Amoss)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:11:54 +0300
Subject: [Baren 1295] exchange application 

Barens-
I would (sheepishly) love to be a participant of the print exchange.
It is very generous for the woodblock veterans to participate as they have
so much to offer.
As a beginner, this inspires me to give the absolute best I can produce-
I suppose that is the common denominator in this group from the newbie to
master.
Thanks for the challenge and I hope to be one of you generous veterans someday!

John

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:49:44 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1296] Re: Baren Digest V4 #234 

Regarding the print exchange, Graham said:
> This is a Baren thingie and as such should be debated and discussed on the baren.

Probably this is right.   We should keep it on the Baren forum  until
the signup deadline so we can talk about it together with any  new
signers-uppers. Just today we got two more raised hands (Phil and 
Jeanne), so maybe Ray will swoop in, and Roger and, and.....

Gayle Wohlken

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From: <DARICH@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:43:24 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1297] Re:to print or not to print 

Regarding the print exchange.  My concern is time.  It would not be
possible for me to create a full color print to exchange since completing
one can take me up to two months and I'm already behind this year.  I could
however create a black and white print for the exchange.  I don't know if
that sounds fair to you all.  If it's acceptable then I'm in.

Andrea Rich

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:12:32 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1298] Portfolio 

Please count me in for participating in the BAREN portfolio. I have some
questions.   Will this have to be a new print ? By that I
mean.....something carved specially for the "annual" portfolio....or can it
be something "old". I like the idea of members creating special prints for
the portfolio with perhaps a special "theme" in mind. Just a thought. When
we talk about a deadline....are we talking weeks or months ?
Thanks........JULIO

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:30:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1299] Ideas about the exchange 

Below is a posting that originated from James Mundie and deals with the
upcoming print exchange.
You have all read my posting........ to keep this amoung the participants
is not in the best interest of the listserver.

Here are the Goods....or is that goodies.

Graham

ps My comments will follow in another posting. This one is long enough.

*** start quoted posting ***

>Dear [Baren] exchange enthusiasts,

>	I am writing to you all as promised with a synopsis of all the
>various ideas and comments I have received so far.  I am including many
>of them below so that we can discuss together the best way to proceed
>with this first [Baren] exchange.
>
>	Feel free to reply to any one or all of the below topics.  It
>might be best when doing so if you would select "reply to sender and all
>recipients"-- that way we can all share our thoughts more easily (but
>please be selective in your quotations).
>
>
>>>>COMMENTS OF SUPPORT AND FORWARD THINKING:
>
>Many of you have written to express your enthusiasm for the first [Baren]
>exchange. Below, I have quoted parts of a few of those comments to share
>with you all:
>
>Dave wrote:
>I very much like the idea that this should be an annual event.  Doing it
>the first time will be the most difficult, but in following years having
>an established pattern should greatly smooth the operation of the
>exchange (with the job of >collating presumably rotating between members
>...).
>
>
>Richard wrote:
>[The exchange] is a great idea... I think the print should be an
>exclusive BAREN print, limited in its edition to just the members.
>Though I myself rarely do editions, I would in this case.  This project
>can become an annual affair easily, and this is an exciting possibility.
> I can see membership exhibitions down the road, too.  Exhibitions that
>will travel around the States, then come here to Japan where I certainly
>am set up to handle such an event, having put together so many over the
>years...
>
>Roxanne, bringing to this exchange her considerable experience with such
>projects, wrote:
>I think the portfolio exchange is is sound idea, & think it would be
>fairly simple to get a grant to see it through, especially if one were
>associated with a University or College. I would volunteer, but have used up my
>grant money and energy here (at least for some time to come) putting together
>"Across the Grain: An American Woodcut Portfolio"...
>
>Perhaps a paper company would be interested in this Baren folio, if we
>all agreed to use their paper to print on, & gifted them with one. Worth
>a shot.
>
>[For a previous project] I had the portfolio boxes (and they are
>heavenly) made by a fellow out here (here being Long Beach, CA) named
>Kris Neilsen. He charged me about $100.00 for each one - I also know a
>fellow that Lloyd Menard (Frogman's Press) uses who is on the east coast
>- he charges about the same thing. The grant also paid for the cost of
>shipping each one of the boxes. I had the artists involved send me
>$10.00, which paid for the design & printing of the colophon page. They
>also sent me artist's statements, which helped with the lectures I've
>given about it, at various museum & art centers here in the golden
>state.
>
>I've done many, many portfolio trades in the past...They are great
>teaching tools, create community, and are wonderful to own, from a
>purely avaricious point of view.
>
>
>Although I hadn't thought that far about the possibilities,I found
>Roxanne's ideas very interesting and shared them with Dave.
>
>In response to Roxanne's message, Dave wrote:
>... I hadn't considered that sort of thing, but find what [Roxanne] has
>to say very interesting.  I should say though, that as long as [Baren]
>is sort of my 'baby' there certainly isn't going to be any 'asking for
>grants' from anywhere.  I don't believe in that sort of thing ... If we
>(or any artist) can't stand on our own feet, we certainly don't deserve
>public support...
>
>I think also, that moving 'upscale' like that would tend to scare off
>the less-experienced members of the group.  I would be adamant that 
>a thing like this should include as many [Baren] members as possible... 
>It should be a collection of work by peers - some a lot more experienced 
>perhaps, but peers nonetheless.
>
>Without know that he was doing so, Graham echoed Dave's thought on
>participation:
>I hope the newbies will join.  Knowing they are going to be involved
>with the project with some experienced PM's this could be good for them.
>
>
>>>>THE DEADLINES:
>
>This seems to be the most pressing concern for everyone.
>I mentioned to many of you that I recommended a COMPLETION DEADLINE of
>the 1st of January, however, I'm not unduly attached to that date.  My
>concern is that we have an adequate amount of time for everyone to
>participate.  This should be fun, not a hastily scheduled chore.
>
>Dave wrote:
>January 1st ... just the time when my New Year card is due ... four days
>before my 10-year exhibition starts ... sounds OK by me ...
>Actually, it doesn't make any difference at all - I'll be submitting the
>print that I'm going to make as a sample to 'advertise' my next series
>to attendees from the exhibition.  So it doesn't involve any extra work.
>
>Gayle, noting her busy end of year schedule, wrote:
>How about sometime in March?
>
>Sheryl, following her recent surgery, wrote:
>I would be interested, but it depends upon how much lead time we have...
>I'm probably not up for printing yet and not mobile enough to go chasing
>supplies.  That will happen some time in September.  I hope.
>
>
>Other suggestions?  Should we push it further into the new year to give
>everyone more time?
>
>I think we also need to set a COMMITMENT DEADLINE somewhere in the near
>future so that all participants will know well in advance exactly how
>many people will be involved.  When that date has been established, I
>will be asking all of you to who have already expressed interest to
>formalize your commitment to the project by writing and telling me again
>that you are in for the long haul.
>
>
>>>>SIZE:
>
>Here is another cause for debate.  It is usual for exchanges of this type
>to adhere to a uniform paper size, but is that necessary here?
>
>I generally work on the small side, but could easily print leaving
>generous borders.  The image Dave will be contributing is also of
>smallish dimensions, but he has said that he could mount his sheet onto a
>larger one if need be.
>
>What does everyone else think?
>
>
>>>>THE COLLECTION POINT:
>
>As I opened my big mouth, the task of collecting and collating everyone's
>prints will fall on my shoulders this time (unless anyone else is dying
>to do it).  As most Baren members live in North America, a location in
>the US seems like the logical distribution point.  The cost of
>international postage should be minimal.
>
>These are the concerns for the [Baren] exchange that have been brought up
>so far.  Please feel free to bring up additional concerns or comments.
>
> James Mundie
>

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1300] Re: exchange application 

John Amoss wrote......
>As a beginner, this inspires me to give the absolute best I can produce-

"absolute best I can produce"--- That's the operative words John.......go
for it.
If you maintain this philosophy and practice you will always progress with
confidence and success.

 >I suppose that is the common denominator in this group from the newbie to
>master.

Actually John we learn from each other.  Any body that thinks they can't
learn from a newbie ....only they think that and is the looser.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1301] Keep it on the Baren 

Gayle wrote
>Probably this is right.   We should keep it on the Baren forum  until
>the signup deadline so we can talk about it together with any  new
>signers-uppers.
>Just today we got two more raised hands (Phil and Jeanne), so maybe Ray
>will swoop in, and Roger and, and.....

Bingo.......

I got a note from Ray and did he Ringer the situation

..............If this is on Jim's folio exchange idea, an excellent one by the
way, your point is right on.  Isn't the whole purpose of Baren to get
everyone involved?  Private posts are good for friends to communicate or if
someone has something to say to Dave about another member.  But it seems to
me that ALL posts concerning Baren should be public.    (This is the
operative phrase)
Otherwise, you  establish little cliques and once that happens, things tend
to go downhill.

I never thought of this angle but as I said he Nailed It.

Graham

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:33:38 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1302] Paste ... 

Although the header says this is from 'Dave', it is actually from
Richard Steiner in Kyoto.  He did a temporary UNSUBSCRIBE so that too
much mail won't build up while he is away during August, but _then_ sent
this submission in.  The server, as it always will, bounced the
'non-member' submission ...

*** begin Richard's post ***

Jeanne wants to know something about paste.  Basically, it is a rice or
flour derived paste, a starch in other words, that has been mixed with
just enough water to sorta drip hesitantly from the tip of a chopstick or
bamboo butterknife, when it is to be used in the usual consistency.  Thicker
mixes might exist, I haven't heard of any, but thinner ones most definitely
do. More about that another time.  Why use paste? In a word, to render the
pigment flat-looking on the paper.  

By now you probably realize that if you use a watery pigment, the
printed color has "light" and "dark" blotches all over.  The paste evens out the 
pigment to render it into that great flat appearance we all love in the 
Ukiyo-e prints, to name one instance everyone knows.  In a way, yes,
paste is a "binder", but as for the "tacky"ness, you want to avoid that for
sure;  too much paste on the block or too thick a mix.

The usual order is to first dab some paste onto the block, more if you
are going to print large areas, much less if there are only lines or very
small areas.  If the flat, uncarved area (or perhaps there are some narrow
lines carved thru it)  to print is about the size in square centimeters as
your hand when it is held flat on the table, the amount of paste can be equal
to the size of your little finger's last digit.  

Next, with one of those large size watercolor burshes (#18 or #20),  
dab on the pigment here and there, again not all that much.  Then with
the larger printing brush, you mix the two evenly all over the area to be
printed. Be careful of getting a build up of paste/pigment at the edges of the
printing areas; if you see it happening, lightly brush it away.  After spreading
evenly the mix all over the place, lightly move your brush against the 
block's grain, from one side of the printing areas to the other.  This will  
really make the pigment even, and you'll be sure you haven't missed any spots.  

Finally, if there are any very narrowly carved ("white") lines, or narrow 
valleys where pigment will collect, (like in the hair of Dave's great Nakagawa 
block shown us last week), lightly clean then out with the edge of the brush. 
If the results appear spotty, reink the block and double print using only a
touch of paste, or none at all.  Double printing a color results in a
richer color;  don't use paste when you triple print a color.  (Hiratsuka
Un'ichi printed his blacks 6 times, in which case no paste is really
needed.)

The first prints pulled from a new block will not be very nice, because
you, the pigment, the paste, the block, the paper, the temperature, the
humidity, the season and much more have not yet gotten into sync.  It
will take two, three, four prints for everything to get used to each other,
after which, you will (should be able to) produce the kind of work you
want.  Also, as the printing moves along, begin cutting back on the
amount of paste and pigment you lay on the block.  Remember, the brush doesn't
release all its load;  some paste/pigment remains in the bristles. Add
to that the paste and pigment lying on the unprinted areas which the brush
will pick up during the next inking.  If you continue to add the same
amounts of p/p every time, the build up will be overwhelming, and you
will get a batch of really lousy prints.

Paper, that is, washi, the (not always) handmade Japanese stuff, will
not stick together ever, unless: it has been over-sized or has been over
moistened.  Thin paper, by definition, needs to be handled with care
anyway;  but you needn't worry yourself about it sticking together
unless one or both of the above occur.  After printing every sheet, Jeanne, you
do insert them back into the moistening pile, don't you?  You stack them
one on another, right?  You keep the to-be-printed pile separate from the
just-printed pile, but one on top of the other, correct?  Then, there
isn't much left to be concerned about (oh, not really true).  

By the way, do you use a buffer sheet laid on the back of your thin 
paper when rubbing with the baren?  If not, and if you are printing an 
image with more than one or two colors, it is highly advisable to use 
either Freezer paper (plastic on one side, paper on the other; plastic 
side touches the back of the washi) or that baking paper (brown or white) 
with silicone in it.  Also keep your baren oiled, with Johnson and Johnson's 
baby oil (blue cap bottle) or olive oil or magnolia oil, which the Ukiyo-e 
printers used.

In any event, Jeanne, keep your eyes open all the time and stay on top
of your printing experence; when you see something you don't like, such as
streaking colors, colorless sections to the print, build up of p/p, the
paper showing thru the color, or whatever, stop then and solve the
problem before continuing. As often as not, the answer will be found in the
water content, of the paste, the pigment, the board or the paper.  Not always,
but often.

I am off to Okinawa for a month and will unsubscribe to BAREN until
September.  If you have more problems, and if you want to add my 2
cents' worth to what you learn from Dave and the others, use the address above
to ask me off list and I will reply after September.  So, now you can guess
what off list means.

Richard

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:53:28 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1303] Going 'public' ... 

Graham's comments about keeping the discussion on the print exchange in
the public forum are very valid.

Jim's original idea in asking for off-list replies was simply an attempt
to avoid clogging the list with extraneous detail that would not be
applicable to most members.  (I thought this was sensible too.)  As it
turns out, nearly every one of the regular [Baren] contributors has
expressed interest in this project, so it seems that there was really
nothing to 'worry' about.

So go ahead ... let's get this thing organized right out here on
[Baren].  There's an easy way to decide where your posts should go:

- - any post with a discussion or comment about the project should come
here to the list (please remember to cut down the quotes to the bare
minimum).

- - when it comes time for Jim to make some decisions based on those
discussions - (submission date, paper size, etc.), he may ask for a
'roll call' to see who can go along with them.  In that case, send your
'me too' 'OK' 'fine with me' postings to him directly.  He will collate
the responses, and let us know the results.

***

A public 'Thank you!' to Jim for both initiating, and coordinating, the
birth of this project.  After seeing how many of you are willing to
participate, I'm very excited about this, and now can't wait for that
day when the package finally arrives in the mail!

Dave

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1304] Re: Off list 

Jeanne wrote...
>Now, to be serious.  I have been working in oils for more years than I care to
>remember so now I am doing a woodblock with oil based inks.  I want to start
>one in the Hanga style of printing but it really looks very difficult.

No it isn't and what's more important it is so much easier to clean up with
water.  This fact alone off sets any difficulty you think is out there.

>What does rice paste do for the watercolors?

It is a binder......It give waterbase pigments body so they print
properly......other wise it goes all speckled.

> Does it act as a binder, make it more tacky,
>enables it to adhere to the wood better?

There, you see how easy it can be.....A little Grey Matter and some
reasoning and you will be doing it with flying colours.

>Also, when the dampaned paper is stacked together,
>since it is so thin , isnt it difficult to separate without tearing?

If you use junk paper ...yes.... If you use good stuff with wet strength
(long fibres in the paper).....no problem.
The Hosho paper I use is almost impossible to tear ....I mean physically
tear.... when wet.

>perhaps I should just jump in and profit by my mistakes.

Why should it be different for you than for the rest of us.

If you have worked in Transparent watercolours it will be a great assist to
stepping into Hanga.

Take time and carefully read the infor on the Baren. It is a magnificent
source.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1305] Re:to print or not to print 

Andrea wrote:
>I could
>however create a black and white print for the exchange.  I don't know if
>that sounds fair to you all.  If it's acceptable then I'm in.

A good B&W is sometimes tougher ....No.....is tougher to do than colour.
Now if we were all to do just a B&W....... would that separate the ..... oh
not here Graham.

I don' have a problem with that Andrea.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1306] Re: various ideas about the exchange 

Here are my responces to the posting

>Richard wrote:
>>[The exchange] is a great idea... I think the print should be an
>exclusive >BAREN print, limited in its edition to just the members.

Yep....good.


>Exhibitions that will travel around the States, then come here to Japan
>where I certainly am set up to handle such an event.

Yep....Almost good.  Remember this acronym OFC   "One for Canada"
We ain't big but we're good.


>Roxanne wrote
>>I think the portfolio exchange is is sound idea, & think it would be
>fairly simple to get a grant to see it through,

No way......  Absolutely NO ....Not on my chinny chin chin....Forget it.
We don't need any crutches to carry off this kind of project.
I have been doing art for 40 years and never went for grants. It is a sure
way to make....well you don't want to hear it.....


The input here is something like doing Art by committee.  So many ideas and
nothing seems to get formulated.

From start to finish to do a new piece I allow 6 weeks.... So any time
after 6 weeks is OK by me.  On that basis Aug 15th is perfect.....You see,
nothing but nothing takes priority ahead of my creative objectives.

Someone suggested March and Jan 1st has been suggested ....Lets compromise.
Make the date Jan 2nd. and if those that can't create something in the time
frame, well, there is always next years event..
(If Dave can do it, what with his involvement here, and 4 more pieces for
his important exhibition coming up then I guess I have no excusses).   (<;

>This should be fun, not a hastily scheduled chore.
>Other suggestions?  Should we push it further into the new year to give
>everyone more time?

I think I have expressed my point.........5 MONTHS!!!!!!!......thats fun.


>>>>SIZE:

>Here is another cause for debate.  It is usual for exchanges of this type
>to adhere to a uniform paper size, but is that necessary here?

I like the idea of all the same size......bigger is not better.
This has some benefits
1.  The portfolio units of all the same size prints would make it a special
collection.
2.  If someone wants to frame then they can exchange images in an existing
frame or if someone wants to frame all of them then ...cheeper by the
dozen...comes into affect.

>but could easily print leaving generous borders.

I am strongly in favour of generous boarders.  The smallest on all the
pieces I have done is 1 1/8"   Most are about 2"   Any time is see those
prints with 1/2" and smaller boarders the word that comes to mind is CHEAP.

SUGGESTION.
The smallest ....  Image  5 1/2" x 3 1/2"  (and for Dave) 14 x 9 cm   +  1 1/8" boarder
The biggest........  Image  10 1/2" x  8"   (and for Dave) 30 x 20 cm   + 1 1/2" boarder
or anywhere in between..

>>>>THE COLLECTION POINT:

>As most Baren members live in North America, a location in
>the US seems like the logical distribution point.

Sounds good to me James.

That's my Canadian 50 cents worth.

Graham

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End of Baren Digest V4 #235
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