[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest            Thursday, 10 September 1998    Volume 04 : Number 270

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From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown)
Date: 09 Sep 98 10:19:07 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1560] Green Drop 

On Green Drop Inks: Great to hear from Dan about this. I myself have heard
nothing from these folks, has anyone else recieved samples, etc. yet?

Gary,
	I think you are onto something with your queries about the religious
aspect of woodblock printmaking. The wood and water, sharpening the knife as an
analogy to sharpening the mind, the printing block as a reflection, a mirror,
the meditation of the printing process . . . perhaps I can only say, I can
relate to this! But how such an approach, activity survives in this digital age
. . . where is the Zen, or the Way, in all of This (this message which will
thanks to our computers go thoughtlessly world-wide . . . ? )

(I might make one observation, thinking of our Baren host, this Internet is not
anyway without its prophets!) 

I myself am a humorless, church-going, beardless, skinny guy; though deep down
I share your unbridled enthusiasm about a new art aesthetic lying somewhere
buried in the future of hanga printmaking, I have never been to Japan, and . .
. 
My experience with the technique so far gives me the idea it will be only by
somehow getting free of our earth-bound egos (and a few other things too
perhaps) and losing ourselves to the materials and processes that anything with
music or meaning is going to get out. Perhaps another way to put it would be .
. . I'd better get back to work!

 Matt

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:43:46 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1561] Re: Baren Digest V4 #269 

Gary wrote:
>   There is meditation and
> concentration is there not? And the printing?  The gods must be happy, the
> stars in proper alignment, a tasty meal of bean curd just finished off, the
> humidity just right, a spiritual calm descending, the muscles warmed up,
> the brushes ready, the  pigments mixed, the paper stacked, the phone off
> the hook, the c.d. playing softly, and the communion ready to begin! 
> Sounds kind of religious to me.    What do you think? 

I think so, Gary.  Also Japanese calligraphy brings the same peace.
The grinding of the ink--the little pot of tea--the preparation, the
clean mind.  There are realms of the mind undreamed of that can be
touched with these practices.  Dave, isn't it true?

Gayle Wohlken

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:48:07 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1562] re: misc. 

Ray;
Thanks for the kind words in the earlier postings. Regarding the folio, I
see your point and understand your views. I can't say  that I entirely
disagree with you. I share the same respect for the art that comes thru in
your postings.  I still believe woodblock prints need all the exposure they
can get. In lieu of all the recent baren postings about the uncertainties
in the future of moku-hanga, I think that even if  1 person out of 100 get
turned on to woodblocks, then the risks taken are well worth it.

Jeanne;
What wonderful work!  Thank you for sharing your art with us. Truly amazing
technique and so much expression! Are you self-taught? On every piece I
kept thinking "what is this subject doing ? thinking ? what's going on ?"
It's kind of like when you hear a movie critic say that the characters on a
movie were not explored and we don't care about them or are not
believable. Your work is the complete opposite of that. The subjects really
"took" me in.  Do you work from photographs ? Those two prints of the
musicians are my favorites. They  must be brand new and they sure don't
look like the "stick figures" you alluded to on an earlier posting. Quite a
deviance from your paintings. I noticed an edition number of 50 on the
guitar player...is that your normal output?   Was it hard for you to come
down in size ? I mean most of your other work is around  the 40+ x  40+
inches. To come down to a print size of  11 x 12......PLEASE show us more.

ps.    Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery ?

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:31:36 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1563] Re: misc. 

Julio
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I do work from photos {taken by me}, models and
my imagination, all rolled into one.
I love people and I hope that it shows.  Everyone is alone, even in a crowd
and that is what I try to reveal.
I think I am two people. My watercolors are loose as are my prints.  My
drawings and paintings are disciplined. Perhaps is is because I taught drawing
and painting for 20 years. 
I used to do enormous woodblock prints, usually in editions of 25. I like the
smaller format for woodcuts, more intimate.
The Guitar player and Bass player were done 5 years ago. Luckily I had the
photos. Now I am off and running again and my Baren is waiting for me.

Jeanne

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:51:18 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1564] re: more misc. 

Chris writes:
>...after you have the design drawn out on the keyblock, what is the first
> tool you like to use?

Hi  Chris Bremmer, welcome to Baren. I am new to woodblock printing also so
what I say here take at your own risk. You can certainly get a lot of info
from the encyclopedia under  the "carving & tools" sections and there are
also many books available thru your local library that dwell on technique
alone. Most of these books were printed during the 60's and they usually
were written by japanese contemporary artists (check the biblio on the
pedia). I start out with the knife and after my outline is done I start
gouging away the "empty" spaces I don't need. I guess your selection of
tools could depend on wether you are following the traditional key-block
method or wether you approach your carving without a key-block; like some
of the work by Matt Brown.

I do woodworking on the side and have a small collection of old gouges,
chisels, etc.. I find that although I might try different tools...I always
go back to my one or two favorites (turn-of-the-century Sorby steels). The
others don't  cut or "feel" the same. It's that "religion" like feeling
mentioned in the recent postings. I feel that these tools (previously owned
by an european  master cabinetmaker) have a history. They know what to do !
They've been there ! They can teach me about the ways of the wood. I am
barely the "vehicle" that brings them back to life. Same way with my
Stanley planes...what can I possibly teach them ? Don't we all have a
favorite brush ? or knife ?  perhaps a favorite baren ?

Gary: .....................
I am very sorry that you are not participating on the folio. Your love and
enthusiasm  for the medium really shows thru on your prints and in your
postings. I often revisit your web-site to  look at those beautiful
pastel-like water scenes.  As I was vacationing in Miami last month and sat
around the beach with my kids, enjoying the sand, the ocean and the palm
trees...I thought of your prints and  made some sketches that I hope I can
expand on in the near future.

ps. If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done ?

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:30:06 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1565] re: more misc. 

Julio,
Thanks for the kind comments.   My pastel- like colors are changing though,
they are getting more intense, primarily because the color illuminated on
the computer is more so than the color pencils I used to use to render my
drawings.  Sometimes I prefer the softer, sometimes the more colorful, but
I hope never dull.   Perhaps when my website is revised, I shall add some
sketches of future work as well as the same prints there now, and you may
notice the difference.  I also have tried Matt's style of no keyblock, or
minimal keyblock and have had some pleasant outcomes.

Matt, did you ever try using the keyblock technique?  Not that you have a
need to, of all the keyblockless prints I've seen, I find yours among the
best.  You manage quite a good sense of design without them.

Julio, here's one back....   If you try to fail, and you do, does that mean
you've succeeded? 

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:19:10 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1566] Gary Gary! 

A few postings back Gary replied to my comment:

> ... traditional type printmaking (with separate professionals
> to do the designing, carving, printing and selling) _is_ pretty 
> much finished.  And so it should be.  

with:

> Hold the fort!  _I'm_ not done with it yet, in fact I'm just getting
> started!   I'm going to pump some new life into it and introduce a 
> whole new genre of woodblock prints,

This needs at least a good 10,000 words of discussion, but just as I was
sitting down to my keyboard to get started, he sent another post about:

"Zen and the art of Woodblock Printing"

and _this_ one could easily take 20,000!

But don't panic ... I'm going to restrain myself!

When one reads about the history of ukiyo-e here in Japan (and I mean
the artistic tradition, not the technical craft itself), one hears time
and again of periods where things stagnated - where all the things being
produced were derivative and without value.  But time and again, many
times down those centuries, new life was injected into it by somebody
popping up with a new idea or a new way of doing things.  Some of these
men were artists, some were publisher/businessmen.  

There is no question at all in my mind that we are now in one of those
stagnant periods.  And I concur wholeheartedly with Gary when he wrote:

> We again stand on the same threshhold, and can either close the 
> door and look for another pursuit, or step out and meet the 
> challenge as they did.

Whether or not there _is_ still enough life left in the old craft
remains to be seen.  Perhaps Gary missed my comment near the end of that
same posting I made ...

> I myself am convinced that given proper 'management' and 
> direction, there would be a lot of life in the craft
> yet.  We'll see what the future brings - perhaps some surprises.

I'm on _your_ side on this Gary.  And I think so is everybody else who
will be reading these things.  We can all see what is necessary.  Now
all we have to do (!) is make the prints ...


***

There, that's a lot less than 10,000 words ... Now for the 'zen' ...

Gary asked:
> how, Dave, would you say woodblock artisans sense the 
> religious aspects of their work?

Hmm ... this is a toughie - perhaps a bit dangerous to answer.  For
myself, I'm a pretty simple guy, not involved at all with any religion
... or mysticism ... or zen ... or anything like that.  For me then,
making a print (no matter how complicated it may be technically) is a
very simple process ... cut ... print.  It is purely a matter of
manipulating a bunch of physical materials into the shape one desires.
That's _all_ there is to it.  In my mind, talk of 'ceremony' and
'communion' and 'meditation' ... well, these are things I just don't see
there.  

Please don't get angry at my rejection of your ideas, as I well realize
that others may see these things differently, but that's just the way I
think.  As for the traditional Japanese workman?  Well, if you could sit
in Adachi-san's second floor workroom and watch while the gang of
printers there work their way down the stacks of paper, chatting and
telling jokes as they go ... or see Komatsu-san over at Yoshida's place
with a TV on the bench in front of him watching the afternoon soaps
while he works on Hiroshi Yoshida reprints ... I wonder whether the word
'communion' is particularly appropriate ...

But please understand that I don't speak for them.  Maybe the definition
of 'zen' is quite fuzzy, and perhaps what Komatsu-san is doing well
qualifies!


Dave


P.S.

I almost forgot ..

Welcome to [Baren] Chris.  I missed your message yesterday because it
had some kind of old date attached and was 'lost' in my mailbox.

As for your question on:
> what is the first tool you like to use?

... in this tradition here, the standard 'chokokuto' carving knife is
used to incise all the lines and boundaries of the design first, before
using other tools to start clearing away the unneeded wood.  As a couple
of people have mentioned, there is a bit of info on this in the
Encyclopedia.

I hope you will let us see a print someday - I see the 'art' link on
your home page hasn't been activated yet ...

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:21:14 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1567] Gary Gary! 

Dave said,

> For me then, making a print (no matter how complicated it may be
> technically) is a very simple process ... cut ... print.  It is purely a matter 
> of manipulating a bunch of physical materials into the shape one desires. 
> That's _all_ there is to it.  In my mind, talk of 'ceremony' and
> 'communion' and 'meditation' ... well, these are things I just don't see
> there.  

Ahhhh, Dave.   I realize that to the average workman, or craftsman, doing a
thing for the hundredth time  (or 97th) may not be too exciting, too
spiritual, or too stimulating.   Put on the soaps, chat over coffee with
one's compatriots, and pound out another stack for the boss. 

How nice to be a designer where everything is new, and nothing is
repetitive.   I look however at one of the prints by Hasui,  specifically
"Road to Nikko".  I look carefully and admiringly at the carving of the
tree trunks, and I cannot believe the carver was engaged in watching soaps,
or sipping late' with his buddies.  I see carving of intense skill and
concentration, a person so focussed on his art that it is obvious to anyone
who looks at it, be it a hundred years from now.  I could be wrong.  Maybe
he had his mind on a date that evening, or perhaps he was thinking of how
many more blocks he would have to carve to pay the weeks bills, but I don't
think so.   There is carving, and there is _carving_!   There is printing,
and there is _printing_!    I think this person took the time to do his
best, and was inwardly proud of it when he finished.   I doubt he blew the
chips off of it after he put his knives and gouges down, tossed it in a
corner, and went out for tofu, grabbed an afternoon paper, and looked to
see what was on t.v. that night.   I think this guy had a spiritual
connection to that block, to that image even, and more of him is in that
block than any of us will ever be able to read.  The concentration with
which his spirit executed his work to me possesses some religious
qualities.  I don't mean religious as pertaining to a god, but pertaining=

to the intensity of his own spirit and motivation.

Anyway.....

Back to producing new prints.

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:57:30 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1568] Re:  Gary Gary! 

Gary wrote:
> There is carving, and there is _carving_!   There is printing,
> and there is _printing_!    

Yes Yes!  There is carving by someone with 'x' years of experience, and
there is carving by someone with 'x+y' years of experience.  The example
of excellent carving you cite to us is presumably done by an experienced
man.  I don't think we need to look 'deeper' than this.  

Of course, personal skills and abilities also enter into it, as they do
in any sphere of human endeavour.  Some people will never do good work
no matter how many years they spend at it.  Others can move to high
levels relatively quickly.  


Perhaps some of you will think less of me for saying this, but when I
hear Gary say things like:

>I think this guy had a spiritual connection to that block ...

I want to reject such ideas intensely.  The blocks that I carve, and the
prints that I print ... and even the life that I live ... the way all
these things turn out reflect nothing more than the level of skill and
experience that I bring to them.  And so far, all these things show a
slow but steady improvement. For how long that will remain possible, I
have no idea ...

The fact that Komatsu san can produce spectacular prints while watching
TV, simply tells me that his hands are so well trained at the job that
he is working almost in a mindless state ...  So maybe this is your
'Zen', Gary?  Are we perhaps just talking about the same thing?

Dave

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 21:05:22 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1569] Re: Baren Digest V4 #269 

James,
	I notice that when we were discussing the specs for the print exchange,
you specifically mentioned paper TORN to size.  I would like to challenge
that sacred cow.  What's the big deal about torn?  It just means we are
trying to make the paper look like it has a deckle when it doesn't.  
	Also, I think Americans are the only ones who use huge margins around
their prints.  I belive that the Japanese Ukio-e prints were trimmed after
they were printed.  Not that there's anyting wrong with having one's own
printmaking traditions.  
	Anyway, today I bought a plank of Cherry, more than 10" wide and 12 feet
long, for $69 today.  Also I bought student grade Hosho at Utrecht for
$1.57 a sheet.  
	Question: what can one add to etching ink to turn it into wood block
printing ink?  Is there a recipe for making oil based ink from pigment that
one can share with me?
Thanks,

Jean

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:29:39 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1570] meditation or not, etc. 

Hi to everyone - as you may know, I just recently joined Baren and have been
enjoying the exchange of information and ideas, as well as checking out fellow
members' work - it's great to see such a variety of styles and personalities
on this forum.  Upon hearing the recent exchange about woodblock printmaking's
meditational qualities or not, I was inspired to chime in!  I think artmaking,
at its best, is an experience much deeper than working on and improvement of
technique!  The work I've done which I consider my best stuff almost feels as
if someone else did it - like somewhere in the creative struggle to translate
what's in my head to paper (or music or whatever) some deeper force, maybe
some deeper, more "subconscious" part of myself, like some sort of "creative
essence" took over at some point and pushed me beyond what I thought were my
limitations -- it's difficult to put this into words without sounding strange
but perhaps some of you know what I mean. In addition to this, I think one of
the things which I enjoy about woodblock printmaking is the meditational
aspect of it - the sharpening of the tools, the carving, the preparation of
the paper, the various things involved in printing, all these things can put
you in a "zone" where you're just in the moment - anyway, my two cents (or
maybe five) - 

Sarah Hauser

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End of Baren Digest V4 #270
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