[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Friday, 11 September 1998 Volume 04 : Number 272 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ramsey Household Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:50:01 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1585] Re: Barens Hi, Ray Esposito wrote: > I am not sure what you are saying here. At first you seem to be saying you > prefer the baren to a press then you ask Jean how to find a press. Permit > me to try to answer both questions, if there are two. I should have said that for me, using a press is much less difficult than using a baren. I guess I wasn't clear in my question. I don't prefer a baren. But without a press, a baren seems to be the answer, though I have been having trouble getting a good even print. Maybe the quality of the baren has something to do with it, or maybe I'm not getting my ink loose enough. With a press, everything seemed to work out. There is the old saying ..."you can print with pressure, or you can print with ink". I seem to have more luck with pressure. I don't want anyone printing for me. I think printing is part of the whole process. It allows a lot more room for manipulation and experimentation, if you do it yourself. And it's much more fun, too (though lately, with a baren, it hasn't been so much fun). What is the address of the Patrick Designs in Canada? Does anyone know? And are their presses as good a quality as those of Rembrandt Graphics? When I get to Oregon, I will have room for a press so am in the market for a good value. Carolyn ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:37:51 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1586] Re: wood, knives and spirit "Too much spirit spoils the texture, warps the rhythm, unfocuses the eye....etc..." Dean, you point out my mistake in selecting the word "spirit" to represent what I meant. Perhaps "motivation" is more appropriate. What moves someone to become an artist, or an expert, or become passionate about something? I don't believe it is the drudge part of the job, the repetitions of procedures, chats with cronies over coffee, or watching t.v. soaps. Anyone doing repetitive work learns to carry on the physical function while the mind wanders elsewhere. If it wanders to soaps, or the scandal of the day, or to religion, or to the bills, makes little difference. It will wander somewhere. This is a factory worker. An _artist_ is back at the level of amazing discovery, or conquering the next level of expertise. He has set himself a new challenge with each work, and finds excitement and satisfaction in his work because he is moved to refine it and perfect it. We must define a workman versus an artist in a way such as this. The workman achieves a skill level of competency, then becomes a drone as his mind is then free to wander off to other pursuits while his body performs the repetitions. The 'spirit' I spoke of is what "moves" that person to refine and perfect his "art". If a person is moved to produce something for the beauty of the object itself he creates, he is an artist. If a person is moved to produce something simply to earn a living, he is a workman. If someone like Dave who carves and prints others works does so with a keen interest in creating, via his skills and techniques, a beautiful work of art, he is an artisan. If he does so solely to pay the rent, he is a workman. I think we all know Dave is an "artisan". Everything he does regarding woodblocks suggests that. If he were simply a workman, we wouldn't have this forum, we wouldn't know Dave, or each other, and some dead poets in Japan would still be dead in a library. Dave has breathed life into all of this, and that is the work of someone "moved" by a spirit. Gary ------------------------------ From: Ramsey Household Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:03:48 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1587] Paying the rent Wouldn't it be nice to do something we love (art) AND be able to pay the rent from selling it? One of the things they are just now starting to teach in art schools is how to enter exhibitions, and market your art. Before that, you were prostituting yourself by thinking of being paid for your art! So, after art school, most people go on to other jobs and never do art again. Being an artist or an artisan should let you pay the rent too! Carolyn ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:04:35 +0900 Subject: [Baren 1588] New member Welcome David! I'm glad you've finally popped up to join the discussions. >I intend to continue creating woodblock art as usual - doing >about 7 or 8 prints a year - No. 206 awaits attention now ... That is an amazing body of work, and I certainly hope you will find a way to let us have a look at some of these prints soon. Julio wrote that: > Two Dave's, they are both in Japan, they both work on the > traditional style and they both shared the same teacher. Actually Julio I've got to add/delete from your comment. We didn't share the same teacher - it is Daniel Kelly and David Stones who both worked with Mr. Tokuriki. But there's one comparison you missed - we both have fairly 'impressive' beards! So from now on everybody - it will have to be Dave S. or Dave B. *** Julio also wrote: >Regarding Tomikichiro Tokuriki........ >what is the name of his book some of you refer to >in your earlier postings ? In the 'Bibliography' section of the Encyclopedia, it's the first book mentioned in the 'Capsule Commentaries' section ... WOODBLOCK PRINTING by Tomikichiro Tokuriki Published by HOIKUSHA, 1968. *** Julio also wrote: > I don't want to know what the others are working on, I don't > want to see previews, sketches, or hear about subject matter, or > problems encountered along the way. I understand your feeling Julio, and I think that most other members will agree and go along with this. It's going to be a wonderful surprise to receive the folio. But I would like to quibble with the final phrase 'or problems encountered along the way'. If anybody is having problems, I think it is important that they feel that they can come here and ask for advice. It is more important that the prints be made _well_ than that they be a complete surprise. *** I've been very much enjoying everyone's postings on the 'zen' business. The communication with [Baren] members has really added an extra dimension to my work. Oops! What am _I_ doing, using words like 'extra dimension' ... Maybe you guys are rubbing off on me! Dave B. *** By the way Sheryl, what does 'YMMV of course.' mean? You may m.... v.....??? ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:27:08 -0500 Subject: [Baren 1589] RE: artists vs laborers, history, blah, blah, blah I think history speaks for itself. Until the turn of the last century and the birth of the new movements within japanese hanga, the print designers were considered the true artists. Guys like Hokusai, Hiroshige & Utamaro were not master carvers or printers (with perhaps some exceptions). You don't see any books on master carvers or printers. Many times the colors & shades used on the final prints (with the exceptions of minor notes by the designer) were left up to the printers and publishers to workout. The carvers and printers were just stepping stones before the final product (and that is what it was... a product for the masses (not really considered art ) arrived at the hands of the publishers. The division of labor in japan was very well established. There is one telling print by Utamaro that shows three young ladies busy at printmaking. One is sharpening a knife, another is carving a block and the other looks like she is making a print. I get visions of modern day sweat shops with children and underpaid laborers doing the repetitive labor. Of course within this group of carvers & printers there were many true master "artists" of their craft. But in that period, in Japan, they were not considered as such. Wood prints in Japan were not considered "art" by the japanese. Only when Western influences interceded in the mid-to-late 1800's did the appreciation for such work began to grow. Even today when you read Dave's interviews with his supporting cast, you get the feeling that they want nothing to do with the word "art". They are just doing a job, creating a product,,,whether is paper, or sizing, or a baren....or cutting up a wood block for someone else. It's work, it pays the rent ! You can't help to notice that a great majority of the japanese print subjects have extremely elegant outfits and almost always wear their hair in a very fashionable style. While no effort was spared to show every minute detail in the dresses & gowns, the faces are usually drawn in very simplistic outlines and with very little detail or shadowing (don't get me wrong; I love japanese prints). These prints were intended for the common people. These prints were the Victoria Secret catalogs and the traveling postcards of their day. If someone 200 years from now picks up a women's catalog from our era.....I wonder if they would consider it art ? Will they go about trying to recreate those photographs ? How did those women from the 1990's get into those tight jeans ? I hope they don't get the idea that all of the women in our time were thin, tall and with a certain flirtatious hunger in their eyes.................... ps. I hope Graham gets back soon, I am running out of material here........ ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:57:45 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1590] RE: artists vs laborers, history, blah, blah, blah Julio wrote: > I hope Graham gets back soon, I am running out of material here........ It certainly doesn't appear so, Julio. You were just getting started it seemed. It appears there were/are no artists in Japan, then, there were/are only wagemongers of one sort or another. Were the "designers" then only businessmen who were capitalizing on the public tastes? Interesting question, and I'm sure that was the case in some instances, but I am not convinced that was _always_ the case. Does the japanese language not have a word for artists then, if there were only businessmen? I cannot believe that in the country that gave the modern world some of its most outstanding art and literature and architecture and paper and calligraphy and theatre, that there were no "artists" around, only businessmen dashing these things off to make a few yen for their next bowl of tofu. Gary ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1591] New member Dave wrote: >Oops! What am _I_ doing, using words like 'extra dimension' ... Maybe >you guys are rubbing off on me!< I think that extra dimension, honorable zen master, is your spirit subliminally suggesting itself to you. >By the way Sheryl, what does 'YMMV of course.' mean? Yes, Sheryl, I was curious about that too. I sure hope it doesn't mean what I think it means! You better be more explicit. (Was that the word I was looking for???) Gary ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1592] Re: Barens >There is the old saying ..."you can print with pressure, or you can >print with ink". I seem to have more luck with pressure. I disagree with this. It is the combination of pressure AND ink that produce quality prints. You say your ink is not loose enough. What is loose enough? In viscosity printing you might have three to four layers of different colors at different viscosities from salad dressing to mayonnaise to peanut butter to right out of the can. Each viscosity can be printed at the same time and the results different depending on pressure. > I don't want anyone printing for me. I think printing is part of the whole >process. It allows a lot more room for manipulation and experimentation, if >you do it yourself. And it's much more fun, too (though lately, with a baren, it >hasn't been so much fun). I agree for the most part. It is much more fun doing your own printin regardless of if you use a press or a baren. >What is the address of the Patrick Designs in Canada? Does anyone know? >And are their presses as good a quality as those of Rembrandt Graphics? >When I get to Oregon, I will have room for a press so am in the market for a >good value. Write Dan Patrick at danpat@comox.island.net and ask him to fax or mail you a catalog. (BTW-the "catalog" is a simple one page sheet printed on two sides. Nothing fancy.) A 24x36 stand model costs jsut $1,295CN. Add microgauges for $100CN and crating for $100CN and you have a total of just $1,495CN plus shipping. At todays exchange rate (I just checked) that is just $987.12US. Talk about a bargain!!!! Show me any press maker coming even close. As to reliability, I asked the same question. I check with some schools and universities who use Dan's presses and got nothing but rave reviews. Considering the heavy use schools put presses through and the use an individual would put them to, I think they would last a lifetime. How can he sell them so cheap? First, Dan does not do this full time. He began 20 years ago when a school asked if he could duplicate one from a picture they showed him. Since then he has built more than 100 for schools and dozens of artists in Vancouver. He has never sold any outside Canada until I came along. He was recommended to me by Graham. I ordered mine for delivery after I move to Maryland in December. It takes him a couple of months to build one. As more and more people learn about Dan and place orders, the lead times will be longer. Dan's wife and I were joking just today that Dan would have to retire so he could go into the press business full time. I should point out one problem. Presses are large. Shippers will bring it as far as a local warehouse near you, usually their own, and you will have to make sure you make arrangements with Dan and the shipper to bring it to your place. Remember also, and this applies to any large crate, the shipper will bring it to you but you have to get it off the truck UNLESS you pay for street delivery. It is then up to you to get it into your studio. In my case, I have made arrangements for it to be dropped in the street and I will uncrate it right there. Then three friends and I will lug it to the studio on the second floor. The 24x36 weighs about 150# and the 30x36 about 200#. I might point out that presses from other companies are much heavier and will cost a lot more to ship and more difficult to get into your studio and set up. Just a few things to think about. Good luck. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:12:53 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1593] Paying the rent Carolyn wrote: >Being an artist or an artisan should let you pay the rent too! Of course. That is the ideal. But if you did it simply to pay the rent and there were no more "spirituality" (for lack of a better word) to it, would you be an artist? Gary ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:39:07 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1594] Re: Paying the rent Carolyn wrote: >Wouldn't it be nice to do something we love (art) AND be able to pay >the rent from selling it? Carolyn Just had to add my two cents here. Over the years I have gotten tired of listening to artists complain and moan about not being able to make a living selling their art. Excuses for failure is tiring. Art is a business. Artists hate to hear themselves compared to business people but they are just that. Far too many artists fail to conduct themselves and their work as a business. It is beneath their dignity. Bullcrap. Art is hard work and so is the business side but any artist who wants to be a success must work just as hard in both fields. Those who do not, fail, or worse, are ripped off by those they think are working in their best interests. Your info that schools are now teaching the business side of the field is encouraging. I hope they do more of it and expand their efforts beyond just how to enter exhibitions. When I was building my collection, I often told artists to take a minor in marketing. Not just a class but a full minor to go with their BFA. Although I will get a whole lot of grief for saying this, the difference between two solid artists of impeccable talent and what makes one a commercial success and the other a failure is not art but marketing. Artists do not want to hear it. I have been dealing with artists for 35 years and I keep seeing it over and over again - quality work by talented artists that goes begging just because they do not think it dignified to use business practices or to learn how to use those practices. It is an old, tired story. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:43:02 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1595] Re: Paying the rent Gary wrote: >Of course. That is the ideal. But if you did it simply to pay the rent >and there were no more "spirituality" (for lack of a better word) to it, >would you be an artist? Yes!! An artist defines him/herself. They are not defined by others. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:45:03 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1596] Re: New prints Graham, Have I succeeded in flushing you out of the woods _again_??? I thought you were building a porch or something! Let me clarify for you. >> Sure, it helps in designing them, but there is _no_ printing like >>woodblock printing done in the traditional sense! Can I play devils advocate again.... >if you have never done it how do >you know "there is _no_ printing like woodblock printing." I am not speaking here of the process but the results. If there is another print medium that can offer the features of woodblock printing I have never seen it. Can waterless lithography do this? I have to say I have never seen a print done by that method so I may be in for a real treat. Which of your lighthouse prints were done this way so I can investigate this method further? If it is a superior method or technique, why are you doing woodblock prints? If you hold that woodblock prints are superior, what are it's features that you prefer? >I don't see that it would be possible for one person to do this. Are you >planning on enlisting an army of artist. I'm not sure where you came up with this army of artists idea, does it take an army to create a new genre, which is a "new style or form or content" according to my Webster's dictionary? >I didn't know you designed computers....no wonder you are to busy to >learn the craft of woodblock printmaking. Ouch! You got a touch in there, Graham! I'll have to send that drop of blood into the lab to be sure there's no poison in it! I think you know what I meant there, you're just really getting into this devil's advocate thing and purposefully misinterpreting my remarks for the fun of it! I'm onto you. Is the house still standing that you attached that porch to, or did they run you off on one of its rails? You seem to be back early! Gary ------------------------------ From: gscholes@islandnet.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:58:54 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 1597] Re: Barens Carolyn wrote > What is the address of the Patrick Designs in Canada? Does anyone know? And are > their presses as good a quality as those of Rembrandt Graphics? When I get to > Oregon, I will have room for a press so am in the market for a good value. When I get back home I will send you details re the Patrick Press. It comes highly recommended. I am not sure I could compare them to Rembrandt Graphics. Graham I will be back in about a week ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V4 #272 ***************************