[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Sunday, 13 September 1998     Volume 04 : Number 276

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From: "David Stones" <stones@mb.i-chubu.ne.jp>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:06:21 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1628] Re: Books and essays charset="iso-2022-jp" 

Dear All,

Prompted by Julio's question and the "paying the rent" postings, I see two
practical subjects that must come together... The book Julio mentioned and
Dave B replied about, by Tomikichiro Tokuriki, was a small-sized, very
down-to-earth and easy to follow introduction to the production side of
woodblock printing (and included outlines of other processes too). But, it
contained no "business" information. - The English edition is now out of
print, on info from the main bookshop-supplier - which is a great pity. The
book influenced my visit here due to just two lines by the translator, who
wrote (the immortal words!) "If the reader of this book has a chance  to
visit Kyoto, he should feel free to contact the author." I did, I stayed a
bit longer, I began to create and later sell prints - but the business-side
gave me more problems than how to re-cover my baren... I'd no idea of
exhibiting, few books in English were available related to marketing art
and, you DO HAVE to sell if you tell the tax office you do woodblock
printing for a living. (I was prevented from being a full-time apprentice
only as I couldn't show the required legal income for non-Japanese -
although Tomikichiro Tokuriki went to generous lengths, even residence.

The above was in the 70's but such references help those starting, to
show times are better and, possibly, financial hurdles. It's time that
the two subjects of gaining woodblock skills and basic marketing ideas
were combined for present-day printers and the next (hopefully)
generation, to show HOW to do both the job well and to begin selling
without many setbacks - because, whatever our thoughts on prints,
one of the objects of duplicating woodblock art is to sell or give some
of the work to others (dangerous comments? Well, I belong to today
and try to live by art, albeit 50% now in economically-stalled Nippon!).

It might be useful to combine personal-experience essays (or files, like
Bill R mentioned) on basic marketing with Baren's information on skills -
aimed at the beginner/semi-pro/pro-to-be. I cannot, like many, write a
book but people could relate, through personal essays, to the [Baren]
pages (?), their experiences to help new artists/artisans in the often
competitive print field... All areas have different business conditions but
I see no reason for any genuine artistic/creative talent/sales to be "lost"
to any third party just because of a lack of basic, practical business info.

Well, that's another log on the [Baren] fire. If anyone can find a copy of
the Tokuriki book I've mentioned, buy it! The English title is/was
"Wood-block Printing" (ISBN4-586-54014-1 C0171). It was published by
Hoikusha in their Color Books Series (No. 14). The Japanese version is
still available, as far as I know. Print on...

Dave S

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:00:54 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1629] Re: Books and essays 

David Stones wrote:

>Well, that's another log on the [Baren] fire. If anyone can find a copy of
>the Tokuriki book I've mentioned, buy it! The English title is/was
>"Wood-block Printing" (ISBN4-586-54014-1 C0171). It was published by
>Hoikusha in their Color Books Series (No. 14). The Japanese version is
>still available, as far as I know. Print on...

Dave and all:

Another approach for getting books is Inter-Library Loans.  All libraries
have ILL programs.  I get most of my books this way.  It is an excellent
way to review a book before buying or getting out-of print books.  The
procedure is basically the same at all libraries and simple.  With the
author, title and ISBN number (thanks for providing it Dave) you fill out a
form and wait.  If the book is sitting in a library somewhere, you will get
it.  I have waited as long as a month (usually it takes a couple of weeks)
but have never failed to get the books I wanted.  Most art books seem to
come from University collections.  There may be a limit on the number of
books you can order.  Here in Orlando there is no restriction and I have
ordered as many as ten at one time.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:59:55 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1630] Down to business ... 

Gary wrote yesterday about the possibility of starting some kind of new
structure for allowing [Baren] members to learn/exchange information on
the topic of the business side of our art/craft.

He used the words:
> something that could be developed as a related category within Baren.

and
> if willing to offer suggestions in a categorized sideboard to baren perhaps,

and this led me off on a hunt around the Internet, looking to see how
other people and other groups are handling such interchanges.

I looked in on forums, discussion groups, message boards, bulletin
boards ... all manner of ways that people are exchanging information.  I
must say right away that I saw an awful lot of noise, and not a whole
lot of really useful communication, leading me to think that what we
have built so far here on [Baren] isn't too far off the mark when it
comes to offering a good mix of information exchange/usefullness/friendship.

So how can we apply this experience to something like what Gary is
suggesting?  I thought long and hard about this while carving all day
today, and think that I might have an answer.  Let me bounce this one
off you and see who salutes ...  (or some such metaphor ...)

***

[Baren] is about _woodblock printmaking_, but as we have seen, some of
the members sometimes want to talk about things that other members
aren't particularly interested in.  Now day to day, that's not a bad
thing.  It doesn't hurt me to scan the messages that talk about plate
oil (whatever the h..l that is!).  I'm sure to learn something
interesting, and who knows, perhaps even relevant to me one day.  And it
works the other way too; the 'press gang' members of the group don't
care a hoot when I talk about barens, but by hearing about such things,
they develop a good overall picture of what our craft is about.

But occasionally, as with Gary's suggestion about exploring this
'business' topic in depth, it seems that the balance may be tipped a bit
too far over.  This topic will involve many long long postings.  So where's 
a solution that allows such in-depth conversations to take place 
without destroying the day-to-day running of our excellent forum?

Let's suppose I set up a sister list to [Baren], say called [Baren
Sidebar], with a subscription list completely independent of the main
[Baren] list.  The topic of this new list?  It would _change_ at regular
intervals - maybe each month or so.

Starting next week (for example) and running until the end of October,
[Baren Sidebar] will focus on 'How to Market your Work' and will be
hosted by (say) Bill Richie.  Those who wish to take part in the
discussions, to listen to Bill's comments and reply with their own
ideas, would send a subscription request to the server.  (They would of
course retain their subscriptions to the main list).  Bill will have
the list password, and the server will be pointed to his address as the
'list-owner'.   At the end of the month, when Bill wraps things up,
those who took part in the discussion would then unsubscribe.

Meanwhile, the main [Baren] list just keeps rolling along as usual.  It
might be a bit quieter than normal, if a bunch of the members are
working away in that 'room' on the side, but I don't think there would
be any major problem in that.

The [Baren Sidebar] will not be archived in the same way that the main
list is.  Instead of an archive of the entire conversations, once the 
[Baren Sidebar] discussion has wrapped up at the end of any
particular month,  the host will be responsible for sending me a
'report' - consisting of clipped together postings that cover the main
points and ideas covered.  This will of course then be stored in a new
section on the [Baren] home page, for future reference by any interested
parties.

A new moderator/host will then step up to take over [Baren Sidebar] for
the next month - say Andrea Rich, who will lead a discussion on the
innumerable details of the process of making a reduction print.  (Don't
faint Andrea!  I'm just using your name as a 'for example')  Those who
wanted to learn about this process would send in a subscription for that
month  ...

If it turned out that some of these [Sidebar] discussions didn't really
get off the ground, then no harm would be done.  The main list would be
untouched by the change.  If one of the discussions went crazy, then the
month long period could of course be easily extended.  Who knows, perhaps
one of the topics could turn out to be so much in demand that it became 
permanent, and we would then just run along as sister lists, presumably 
starting up a new [Sidebar] to replace the one that had been 'taken over'.

I can really only see one snag - we would need hosts.  I can't can't
can't take on any more jobs at the moment.  (Nor _should_ it be _me_. 
I'd be quite happy to be an occasional contributor to such of the
[Sidebar] discussions as matched my own interests.)

Would there be enough [Baren] members willing to step forward to help get
this off the ground ... and keep it there?  If there is a good consensus on 
this, I will start 'er up, and we could be up and running in a couple of days.  

Over to you ... I await your comments and suggestions.

Dave

(B.)

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:09:24 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1631] Re: Down to business ... 

Dave Bull wrote:
>Let's suppose I set up a sister list to [Baren], say called [Baren
>Sidebar], with a subscription list completely independent of the main
>[Baren] list.  The topic of this new list?  It would _change_ at regular
>intervals - maybe each month or so.

Dave:

It is obvious you do a lot of thinking while carving and you think good.  I
see only one problem with the idea.

Is it possible to piegonhole topics?  As members join Baren, their
questions need to be answered when they are thinking about them.  If
Sidebar is open for one month, or even two, to discuss business, for
example, what happens when a member has a busienss question later after it
shuts down?  Do they get on Baren and the same problems come up or do they
want until another business Sidebar begins?

It strikes me that most questions come up because a member has a problem or
situation "at that moment" in his or her life and they need an answer at
that time.  If the Sidebar is discussing business aspects of art, then all
well and good.  If not?????  The Sidebar also seems like a whole lot of
work and as you write, finding moderators could be a problem.  Would
Sidebar be shutdown during the months when there is no subject or
moderator?  What happens to the questions people want to ask but do not
because they are afraid of doing so on Baren as it may not be germaine and
a Sidebar is not open for their subject?

Permit me to offer a different approach.  What about mentors?  I see
nothing wrong with a little Baren digression like talking about plate oil
vs flash oil, etc.  (In fact, that is a woodblock question because some of
us use etching inks for our woodblock prints and need that info), or humor,
which seems to be lacking when Graham and I are not attacking each other.
But major deviations such as business might be assigned to volunteer mentors.

Instead of a separate forum, perhaps Bill could volunteer to answer
questions directed to him privately.  I would love to be a mentor.  I
believe Bill and I come from two different backgrounds and could give
members point-counterpoint.  I believe Bill offers a lot of years in the
field of art.  I offer 35 years of running my own businesses, both
for-profit and non-profit, and 35 years as a print collector and now
artist.  I am sure there are others who could and would love to be mentors
in many non-Baren areas.. 

If a mentor received questions he/she felt were of genuine interest to
Baren, he/she could periodically post a digest of them on Baren for anyone
interested.  In this way, many questions that would not be of interest to
some Baren members would not show up but those that pertained to their art
activities would be posted, not in little posts but all at once in a
digest.  A "screening" process as it were.  

In fact, some digests or parts of digests, could even be a part of the
encyclopedia.  Business for example cover aspects related to woodblock and
thus qualify.  I would suggest however that such digests be reviewed by you
for content and appropriate style.

May I also point out a truism of groups?  Be it on the Internet and Baren
or in a classroom or any group setting, many participants are afraid to ask
a question because it might be "stupid".  Whenever I give a class or
workshop, I always begin by telling the audience, "the only stupid question
is the one you do not ask because there are others in the room who want to
ask that same question but who are also afraid to because they do not want
to look foolish".  I suspect Baren is no different.  

Perhaps by giving members the opportunity to privately ask questions or
seek advice from someone they consider a friend, a mentor, more good
questions will be asked and these can then be periodically shared with
everyone via a digest.

Just a few thoughts for what they are worth.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:45:18 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1632] re: Michener 

In James Michener's book; The Floating World, there is a chapter that deals
with the passing of ukiyo-e.  He talks about how art must move in cycles
and about a continuous interchange of ideas. The old must die and give rise
to the new. This new art forms in time will also give way to newer ideas.
When he talks about the influences of outside sources (europeans and
americans)  in recognizing woodblock prints and when he talks about a
continuous interchange of ideas, I wonder if he had a premonition about our
Baren forum.

I quote from his book: "..... a thousand years from now someone in Tokyo
will be drawing a new portrait of O-Schichi....."; well it has not taken a
thousand years, since the book was written in the 1950's, but I think work
like what Dave is doing certainly falls within Mr. Micheners expectations.
What would Mr. Michener think if told that fifty years after he wrote his
book, an outsider to Japan,  would spend ten years of his life recreating a
whole body of work (100 woodblock prints) in the traditional technique of
ukiyo-e , using traditional materials and tools and would give rise to a
world-wide forum for the interchanges of ideas relating to printmaking ?

I think he would be very pleased that the art form he loved so very much is
in good hands.

Thanks Dave Bull for making this forum possible and for "turning on the
light", for thus of us in the dark.

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From: Bill Ritchie <ritchie@emeralda.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:00:08 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1633] Re: Down to business ... 

Dave Bull wrote:
>Let's suppose I set up a sister list to [Baren], say called [Baren
>Sidebar], with a subscription list completely independent of the main
>[Baren] list.  The topic of this new list?  It would _change_ at regular
>intervals - maybe each month or so.

Count me in, Dave. I've always wanted to "host" a list, and this is a
chance to "ghost-host" a real host. If it gets dicey, I'll holler.

- - Bill Ritchie (spelled with a "t" my ancestors said).

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:00:26 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1634] Re: Books and essays 

Dave Stones wrote:
>It might be useful to combine personal-experience essays (or files, like
>Bill R mentioned) on basic marketing with Baren's information on skills -
>aimed at the beginner/semi-pro/pro-to-be. Dave S,

Good idea Dave, this sounds great to me.  

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:07:48 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1635] Re: Books and essays 

To all,
I have a xeroxed copy of the book by Tomikichiro Tokuriki in English if
anyone is interested, and I am not violating copyright laws by xeroxing it
again.   This edition was from 1975, I don't know whether it ever came out
again.  The book it was taken from had a lot of underlinings and margin
notes but if you can't find a copy let me know and I'll copy it for you. 

Dave (S or B), any idea on the copyright aspect?

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:22:14 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1636] Down to business ... 

Dave B,

    Regarding your sister baren idea.  It sounds much more complicated than
what I had envisioned. I like Dave Stone's idea of essays, or personal
anecdotes of an instructive nature perhaps, much as your own, simply being
cataloged in Baren under a heading of "Business Aspects".    Any of our
business mentors could write one in, and if Baren members have comments or
questions, simply contact the contributor through personal e-mail, thus not
clogging the main Baren arteries.   If appropriate, discussions could ride
the main stream of Baren for general informational purposes briefly, and
the interested parties could then go into the private e-mail mode.  Simple
notices might be posted on Baren when a new essay or article is added,
otherwise it remains fairly simple and unfettered.

What's the reaction to this?

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:26:08 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1637] Re: Down to business ... 

Ray,

 this is getting scary, it appears we begin to think alike!  I responded to
Dave's post before reading yours, but I think we're on the same track.

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:30:16 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1638] Re: Down to business ... 

Bill,
>Bill Ritchie (spelled with a "t" my ancestors said).<

Any relation to the Ritchie who did many Japanese Literature translations? 
I believe it was Donald Ritchie?  

Gary

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:04:09 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1639] Re: Down to business ... 

Gary
In response; I like your idea. Uncluttered and to the point and not taking up
any undue space on the Baren group. Right now we are busy, I hope getting
ready for the Print Exchange. Let us not clutter up our minds with too much
information. I am busy digesting all of the info. from this August {is this
correct ?} group !!!!!!!
There are so many books out there on the business of the Arts. I suggest
perhaps we could make a list for everyone and let it go at that.
I have at my disposal a pretty good list of Business in the Arts books that I
would be happy to post. 
Just my opinion.

Jeanne

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:28:58 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1640] Re: Down to business ... 

Jeanne said,

> Let us not clutter up our minds with too much information.<

Jeanne, a bibliography would be a nice adjunct too, but I still like the
idea of essays, anecdotes, etc. filed under a business heading in Baren.
If you're too busy now to read them, they'll be there later, whenever you
have the time.  Sure there are plenty of books out there on merchandising
and the like, but I think personal experience, and experience from someone
actually in woodblock printmaking is a little more palatable.  Just my
opinion.

Gary

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:51:59 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1641] Re: Baren Digest V4 #275 

Hurrah for John Amoss!  Your illustrations for creating sharpening stones
for gouges at

http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/entries/onepoint/018_16/018_16_frame.html
and
http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/entries/onepoint/018_18/018_18_frame.html

are excellent.  They are truly inspiring.  We need more pictures to accompany the words!

Jean Eger

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From: Daniel Kelly <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:38:44 +0000
Subject: [Baren 1642] Re: Books and essays 

Gary Luedtke wrote:
> I have a xeroxed copy of the book by Tomikichiro Tokuriki in English if
> anyone is interested, and I am not violating copyright laws by xeroxing it
> again. 

Good suggestion Gary. I also might add that I could scan it for people after
Sept. .21.. Like David Stones I was also very influenced by both the man and
the book. It was the only art book I could afford at the time.

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End of Baren Digest V4 #276
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