[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Friday, 9 October 1998 Volume 05 : Number 306 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:50:47 -0600 Subject: [Baren 1825] Re: Baren Digest V5 #305 Great discussion on the ranking of woodblock prints. Dave Stones said: > Things may change here (?) - but it would be nice to know how other people's > woodblock prints are received ("ranked?") in their respective locations Okay, here's mine for what it's worth. I just entered a show, using three woodblock prints put into a triptych made of wood. I also made some small sculptures of paper and leather which set upon pedestals in front of the three woodblock prints in the triptych. I won't elaborate on the imagery, other than it had to do with death. I received an Honorable Mention and I was happily surprised. I realize this may not be what you are talking about David S., but I haven't seen "judges" in our area (northeast Ohio) look down on woodblock prints as a lesser art. In fact in I notice from my own experience portraiture (oil or whatever) is seen as more "commerical", therefore less important artistically than woodblock prints. A very good annual art show in our area recently gave the Best of Show to a woodblock print. Gayle Wohlken ------------------------------ From: amoss@mindspring.com (John Amoss) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:37:54 +0300 Subject: [Baren 1826] musing Howdoo y'all- As I tend to learn most by my errors (see my earlier Michener comments), I have the courage to throw something else out for comment: Without going into much detail (because I can't), I have thought that by generalizing two oriental philosophies/thoughts, it may illustrate how some creative people tend to function and possibly how I may understand each other's point of view: Taoist seek the intuitive, are antiauthoritarian, dynamic, common, radical. Confucianists tend to be analytical, hierarchal, methodical, proper, conservative. As for myself- the "Taoist" in me loves the freedom of expression, the antiestablishment (antiprofessional?) quality of doing something for the sake of doing it and the challenge of creating something fresh. The "Confucianists" in me wants to learn from others and be a model of control and success. Solid, hard work honed by purpose and respect. I have to admit that I have many of the same internal "battles" as Baren has: I appreciate the "Taoist" comments in the discussions that "stir things up", but they sometimes lack direction. I read with delight the "Confucianists" entries that are so substantial, but sometimes find them too hard and rigid. At the risk of getting silly, the combination is like water (the former) and wood (the latter). Now, what could ANYONE do with those two things? The Taoist in me says: "poohsticks". :-) - -john ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 1827] Re: Printing and Profession This has been a very interesting discussion and I trust I am not to late to put in my orrrrrr Dean wrote.... >In Japan, for instance, woodblocks historically includes genres as varied as: >porn, illustrations for books, etc etc. Porn? does the include Erotica art or is it just pron. Certainly erotica was quite prevalent in Japan. Noboru Sawai in Vancouver is well known for eotica imagery. James wrote.... >We in Baren of course know that this sort of thinking is utter >nonsense. While woodcut may not be a highly "technical" craft, it >certainly is a craft (or 'art', if you prefer) that requires a great deal >of skill. Personally I believe that woodcut requires a LOT more skill than those done using a press. There is a subtlety and nuance in inking, brushing, and baren pressure that does not occur with other press printmaking. The chances of variations seem to be greater. The experience of waterless litho this summer brought this home to me very clearly. Ray wrote.... Those wood block artists I know in the states who believe in themselves like Jim Mundie are very successful. (Mundie has a lot of other problems but we'll discuss those later.) Wait till after my exhibition will you Ray Dave Stones wrote.... > Things may change here (?) - but it would be nice to know how other people's > woodblock prints are received ("ranked?") in their respective locations. The woodblock imagery here is well received and other than the fact that the general public knows nothing about the process ...or at least didn't until I came on scene. For 5 years I have been demonstrating at many venue's and have done lectures at service clubs and sundry other places. Just this week I was at a fund raising function for the local hospital and at least a dozen people I talked to had no idea that about the process. I know that in the past 5 years about 50 artists have gone to Noboru Sawai for lessons. This is a two week session, live in summer school. Of those I know only one other person who has gone on to work in the medium. There is one other person who is doing the European method of woodblock prints on a small scale (5 x 7") . Noboru and I have discussed this and we are both perplexed as to why. We think it is for several reasons. The start up costs is major factor. The major reason is because of the complexity of doing the work. This complexity involves thing like availability and preparation of the wood. The spacial ability to translate and envision the result of an image onto a woodblock and in eventually printed. The skill and knowledge required to carve. The amount of labour to achieve the results. To do a two to three colour image it takes me about a 5 days to see the results. Comparing this to the waterless lithography I took, which in three days I did two images with editions of 12. Now that borders on obscenity When one thinks about it woodblock priniting is so technically simple it hard. Regards, Graham ps, Kim if in fact you were talking about getting in on the Baren Exchange....Jim is the boss on this one. Also......there is probably a ton of typos here...back to setting the exhibition ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:58:52 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1828] Fine art or craft It has been my experience here in the States that woodcuts are accepted as fine art. They are welcomed in exhibitions at Museums, Universities, and Galleries, and are as likely as any work to come away with a prize. This is not to say they are valued equally financially. They do not command near the prices of say an oil painting. This has more to do with the fact that they are multiples perhaps than with their artistic merit. Galleries prefer to represent the potentially more profitable paintings for obvious reasons. I have also noticed something else interesting. I participate in a large number of fine art shows each year and after receiving compliments on my woodcuts I have frequently been asked, "What else do you do. Do you paint?" I wonder how many painters are asked if they are also printmakers? Another comment from David about how artists are trained in Japan was interesting. Here it is really more of a free for all, anything goes atmosphere. With the idea being to come up with a unique personal view. The most famous and successful American artists seem to be those who break established rules. I am thinking of the whole pop art and abstract movements I suppose. There are many schools of art more traditional but none more famous. I guess my point is there seems to be more freedom to explore and experiment in the western tradition. for what it's worth Andrea Rich ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 14:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1829] Re: Fine art or craft Andrea wrote: >I have also noticed something else interesting. I participate in a large >number of fine art shows each year and after receiving compliments on my >woodcuts I have frequently been asked, "What else do you do. Do you >paint?" I wonder how many painters are asked if they are also printmakers? >for what it's worth Andrea For what it is worth???? A lot. Some very good observations. I doubt any printmaker will ever command the respect that painters have nor will we command the prices. That is the price we pay for our art. I have never been asked the question you were but at a recent show an artist, an oil painter, was looking at one of my prints. He said he did not understand it at all. (A burden all abstract artists must carry.) I told him to read the title since in my work, the title is intregal to the work. Reading the title, then the print, he looked at me and said, "Oh, now I understand". Alas, had I not been standing there, he would have walked away shaking his head instead of nodding. Strange experience. Your point that in the West we have more freedom is right on. But being a renagade can also be fun. And as I have said many times in the past, "Ain't fun what it is about?" :-)>>> Keep those great thoughts coming Andrea. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Dean Brink Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:12:01 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1830] Re: Porn/eroticism... Was: Printing and Profession Graham wrote: > Porn? does the include Erotica art or is it just pron. Certainly erotica > was quite prevalent in Japan. I'm not sure about the use of the pictures, if you want to distinguish between porn and erotic images. But shunga (spring pictures=depictions of erotic engagement) were very common before Western (Victorian) ideas concerning sexuality and "civilization" and "science" were popularized in books around 1880. The situation changed so rapidly that one then extremely well known author, Yamada Bimyo, who grew up reading Edo and Edo-style novels, had his entire writing career destroyed because of an image of a naked women appearing in one of his short novels (I think it was a woodblock impression too). The reaction was suddenly that it was scandalous to represent nudity etc.....But in the Edo period, shunga were quite common, and are memorable today for the huge, veiny genitalia sported. There are male-female, male-male, and males with males in kabuki drag (kabuki being in part a place for making the acquaintance of male prostitutes). There are tea-houses and Yoshiwara scenes, etc. etc. Today Japanese media, though censoring genitals, is still more open to depicting nudity and various sexual situations (that often are demeaning and depict violence against women) than in the US. Go to most 7-11s or local, rural stores and you can't miss the SM magazines. dean ------------------------------ From: Wanda Robertson Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:18:14 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1831] Re: Baren Exchange Hi everyone, I'm new to the Baren list, and am enjoying it a lot. I'm a rank beginner. Yes, tell us newbies about the print exchange! Even if it's too late to be in this one, we will be ready for the next one. (I hope) Wanda in blustery, windy, rainy Oregon, USA ------------------------------ From: kim and paul Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 13:18:44 -0800 Subject: [Baren 1832] comments Hey, this is Kim, Ray, I agree with you about the status of relief printmaking in the States. When I studied at the University of Arizona, there was great respect for woodblocks, even linocuts. I'm not sure how other university printmaking depts. approach techniques in relief. i.e.--do I consider myself lucky for the exposure? Dunno... Karen Kunc and Helen Frankenthaler seem to be very well known around here. Commentary from the professors in the group? Dave B., your comments about calligraphy being a "craft" in the traditional sense, with senseis and kissing their feet, etc., is right on the mark...... I have belonged to a local calligraphy guild for 8 years now, and I have lost track of the number of "master calligraphers" who have passed through, teaching workshops, and are subject to idolatry from some members. I have seen so many of my peers struggle against this sense of tradition and spend so much of their time meticulously forming the perfect "R" in whatever hand is the flaver-of-the-month....... This is not so with woodblock. Like you mentioned, people don't even register it as a craft, thus releasing the medium from bound rules of tradition. Yahoo! I have been told I missed the deadline for the print exchange. I would still like to see the results, maybe online (?). Will look forward to the next exchange....... ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 1833] Re: Baren Exchange Wanda Welcome to the Baren. Trust you will find it as stimulating and helpful as it is for so many others. You signed off with...... >in blustery, windy, rainy Oregon, USA Ah yes, but wait till Jan when we have to cut our lawns. (If you live west of the mountains.) Graham The Garden of Eden Victoria BC ------------------------------ From: Don Furst Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 16:35:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 1834] Re: comments re stature of relief Kim wrote: > Commentary from >the professors in the group? Here at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington we teach intaglio, relief, screen printing, and litho, with no obvious priority given to any one process. I have noticed that the major competitive print exhibits are sprinkled with examples of all the different process "families." Perhaps I can open a can of worms ever so slightly (a can of silkworms) by observing that screen printing seems to suffer more from lack of artistic prestige than prints from wood. Don Furst ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:34:20 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1835] Re: comments re stature of relief Don wrote: >Perhaps I can open a can of worms ever so slightly (a can of silkworms) >by observing that screen printing seems to suffer more from lack of artistic >prestige than prints from wood. Don Love those cans of worms. You are correct concerning screen printing. I think the reason is because of its association with t-shirts and other commercial printing. Quality screen printing can be fine art but it alone among all printmaking media suffers from such a comparison and I doubt that will ever change. As I said concerning woodblock however, much of this resides in the artists confidence. If he or she believes screen printing is fine art, then it is. If he or she is not confident and worries too much about what others think, then success will be harder to come by. Keep opening those worm cans. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Angela Oates Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 18:07:10 -0500 Subject: [Baren 1836] New Member Intro Hello to all, I am new on the Baren List and look forward to participating in this forum. Until now my primary way of working with woodcuts has been in using the reductive process. I am brand new at the Japanese technique and welcome all the info any may wish to share. Angela enjoying the remnants of a great indian summer in South Carolina ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:30:00 +0900 Subject: [Baren 1837] Re: Printing and Profession Graham Scholes wrote: > Porn? does the include Erotica art or is it just porn? What is erotic, and what is porn, is obviously an individual discernment. But as it happens the question is easy to answer because they made _so much_ of the stuff, that there is plenty in both categories, no matter where you draw your line between the two ... Some scholars have expressed the opinion that it was the desire/need for a way to easily and cheaply disseminate sexually oriented material that was responsible for the rapid development of the woodblock publishing process here in Japan in the early 1600's ... Sound familiar? *** Wanda wrote: > I'm new to the Baren list, and am enjoying it a lot. I'm a rank > beginner. But I hope you will be insipired by all this _talk_ to actually start carving soon! > Yes, tell us newbies about the print exchange! Even if it's > too late to be in this one, we will be ready for the next one. (I hope) I've been waiting for Jim to pop up and explain the situation ... Yes, you 'new' members are too late for this one, as the edition size and specifications have been 'set' for more than a month now. What's happening is simply that a number of [Baren] members (29 people this time 'round) are each making a print for a common set (29 copies, of course). The prints are to be completed early next year, and will then be sorted and exchanged among the members involved. If it does all work out successfully then I am sure that discussions will start up on doing it again, maybe annually, although that all remains to be seen. Kim wrote: >I would still like to see the results, maybe online (?). Will look > forward to the next exchange....... Yes of course, as soon as I receive my own copy of the exchange folio I will scan them in and create a page for the [Baren] web site. *** and lastly, I received an announcement today about a new place for information about prints. It's not just woodblock, and perhaps may only be of interest to those living in a particular geographical location, but in any case, I'll reproduce it here, in case any of you are interested. The contact address for more info would be: Robert Dale Anderson *** start announcement *** >I've set up an email listserv to trade and discuss information about current >printmaking practice and events in the state of Texas. This is a public list and >open to all Texas printmakers, print faculty, print students, printers, artists, >print curators, collectors and dealers. Please fell free to forward this >information to any you think may be interested. > >TexasPrint is an opt in list, you must personally subscribe. To do so send >mail to this address: > >majordomo@art1.art.utexas.edu > >with the following in the *BODY* of the message > >SUBSCRIBE TexasPrint Your_FirstName Your_LastName *** end announcement *** Dave B. ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:58:04 -0500 Subject: [Baren 1838] re: my web-page I have been working on a web site in order to share some of my work with "Baren". It is my first try at putting something like this together so I am looking for feedback. There are many photos, so if this is a problem, let me know. There is much more coming on the "Prints" page. Thanks. JULIO Julio's web-page: http://www.skokienet.org/skyouth/syjcrp1.html ------------------------------ From: Phil Bivins Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:34:29 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1839] Re: comments re stature of relief Hi Don, This is Phil Bivins from Southern Pines, NC. Not too far from Wilmington. Glad to have you aboard! ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V5 #306 ***************************