[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Tuesday, 15 December 1998 Volume 05 : Number 376 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ('Off-topic' post deleted) ------------------------------ From: amoss@mindspring.com (john amoss) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:46:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 2324] color changes and editioning Matt wrote: >The MFA Boston has a definition of states and editions that I subscribe to: >changes in the paper and colors occur within an edition. Changes to the blocks >or plates (significant changes that is) constitute a new state, as Sheryl >described. Hello to all- I hope that I understand the discussion by pointing out that Hiroshi Yoshida did many charming prints using the same blocks, but changing the color pallette(usually radically) to present landscapes in 2 or 3 different times of day: Same scene, same blocks but different colors, different editions. I personally found the practice to be a facinating study of light and mood. I think it is amazing how he used his block's potential. I know that he is well-known for his consistency within his editions, but I'm glad that he wasn't bound to convention or seem to have any hang-ups about whether he was pulling a print or a scam. John ------------------------------ ('Off-topic' posts deleted) ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:49:25 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2325] Re: Down with taxes, up with prints! Sheryl wrote: >So people don't deserve art unless they can afford originals? Sorry, >I'm a little more democratic than that. My biggest complaint with >the limited editions is that the people who sell them pretend there's >a big difference between the "limited edition" print and a poster. >IMO, that's the scam not the act of reproducing the image itself. Sheryl This was exactly the point I was making. Cheers Ray ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:56:13 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2326] Re: Baren Digest V5 #374 Graham wrote: >What I said stands..... Create a new image.... you can only get better at >the creative process. Do not confuse the creative desire with monetary >desire. >You can have both but be careful which drives which. Couldn't agree more. Of course, I approach it from a somewhat different angle. My editions are 3-8 with very rare exceptions such as the print exchange. To me the fun is in making the plate. Printing is an afterthought. Yeah, I know...weird. Cheers Ray ------------------------------ ('Off-topic' post deleted) ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:07:41 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2328] Re: Reissued posts Gary wrote: >As far as print documentation in the states, I am aware of stringent >requirements in Hawaii, where I have been selling my prints. ... >There was an art scandal >there back some years where unofficial prints were being passed off as >originals, I believe, causing the State to adopt tighter requirements in >their sales information. Patrick, if he is still with us, would >undoubtedly be better informed on this. In case you would like a little background, this scandal involved Center Art Gallery and Dali. Although much of what they sold was legit, they were leaders in the Dali scandal. I have not kept up with it for a number of years but I used to fly to Hawaii for weekends and purchased a lot of art from Center Art Gallery, spending close to $100,000 ove time. Fortunately, most of what I purchased was non-Dali but I did get stung for a few thousand which is why I am so strident about editions, signatures and reproductions. It's a good thing I did not live in Hawaii or they may have been a few bodies washing up on the beach but alas, it was only money. :-)>>> Cheers Ray ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:56:56 -0800 Subject: [Baren 2329] Re: Baren Digest V5 #374 Ray wrote...... >Couldn't agree more. Of course, I approach it from a somewhat different >angle. My editions are 3-8 with very rare exceptions such as the print >exchange. To me the fun is in making the plate. Printing is an >afterthought. Yeah, I know...weird. I don't find that weird at all. Not even strange, and for that matter not even..... Oh cool it Graham.... I understand what you mean and I would have to believe that it really comes down to creativity. The creative process of developing a new image with the action of carving. What could be better. Certainly with myself it is the designing of a new one and the carving and the challenge of getting 8 to 10 plates registering that turns my crank. Graham ------------------------------ ('Off-topic' posts deleted) ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:41:31 -0600 Subject: [Baren 2333] re: feedback Graham writes in baren #2319: >What I said stands..... Create a new image.... you can only get better at >the creative process. Do not confuse the creative desire with monetary >desire. >You can have both but be careful which drives which........... >Why not CYA it and set the number for an edition at say 25 or 50 to start. >If it takes off, good, you are ready to accommodate. If it dies then don't >print the edition. I only print 10 to 15 prints at a time out of my light >series of 75 prints. When they are sold, I go and print some more. No >waste and not hastles. And you know what.....every time I print 10 more the >price goes up 10%. Ooooooh isn't that a neat way to conduct and control >your work and marketing. Graham, I think you are contradicting yourself ! . In an earlier posting you disagree with changing the paper or the colors or anything related to the original print in an edition. How can you guarantee down the line that your later prints are going to be close to the first session of 10-15 prints ? Do you store away 60 sheets of the same paper to ensure compatibility? What about pigments ? Is every batch you buy (or mix ) equal ? What about the woodblocks ? You do many colors...how can you ensure registration will be the same later on when dealing with so many blocks ? A year down the line...surely your "artistic eye" and your process should have changed/improved....Is this fair to the original buyers ? What do you mean when they are sold you go and print more ? Is that six months later ? One year later ? or 10 years after the first printing ? What is creative about that ? To quote your own words.... "Create a new image..." Why not just tell your buyer that you are sold out of "that" particular print but that you have others available ? Why would you want to take out old blocks (possibly warped) and retrace all your efforts of the first time around when you can be creating and printing new stuff ? What about the excitement and the creative thoughts that were going thru your head during that initial printing ? Is that going to be reflected in a print done years later ? What about those 10-15 buyers who think they got 12/75 but in reality maybe they only got 12/15 or 12/48 ? How can it be legit to sign your name and say a print is 5/75 when you may never print number 16-75 ???? Do you tell your buyers that ...oh by the way 17-75 will be printed "later" ? (But only if more people buy this print !). I know you are going to say that no two prints are alike, that after the creation of the woodblock printing is a mechanical process and that your intentions are good, bla,bla, bla, bla. I just don't see it. You are quick to judge other printmakers for what they do and how they go about THEIR business and call them greedy, but when YOU need an additional print(s) to sell you just go out and print another? Why judge at all ? I don't have a problem with your method (print a little now, print more later!) or with Dave's (print all 100 at one time ). I know you guys mean well, but I know for a fact (from private emails) that you and Ray occassionally have HURT some of the baren members with your one-sided holy-than-thou my-way-or-no-way attitude. Some members have stayed away for a period of time because of it. I will stand beside you when it comes to putting down scam artists, laser reproductions and other obvious enemies of printmaking. While many members are established artists (and may not give a crap about your thoughts on this subject) a lot of others may be looking at you guys for guidance and instruction thru the printmaking world......so please be careful what you say and specially how you say it. Maybe I just like to see my work stamped all over coffee-mugs and t-shirts !!!! ------------------------------ ('Off-topic' post deleted) ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2335] Re: feedback Julio wrote: >I know you guys mean well, but I know for a fact (from private emails) that >you and Ray occassionally have HURT some of the baren members with your >one-sided holy-than-thou my-way-or-no-way attitude. Some members have >stayed away for a period of time because of it. Bitter, bitter, bitter.... >Maybe I just like to see my work stamped all over coffee-mugs and t-shirts!!!! I do not recall ever reading any post from anyone on Baren that said or indicated in any way that this was wrong. If you got that impression I sure would like to see it. Cheers Ray ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:30:46 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2336] Re: Reissued posts Ray, Now that you mention it, (the art scandal in Hawaii), that is correct. The details had eluded me, it's been a number of years since I even thought about it. Gary ------------------------------ ('Off-topic' post deleted) ------------------------------ From: Sheryl Coppenger Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:17:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 2338] Re: Odds 'n ends David wrote: > Sheryl used another one of those abbreviations that I don't understand: > I understood the 'IMO', and I think I get the 'IMHO' and > 'IMNSHO', but you've got me again with 'IIRC' ... > Sorry about that. IIRC is "If I Recall Correctly". Sheryl Coppenger ------------------------------ From: Sheryl Coppenger Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:59:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 2339] Re: feedback Ray wrote: > I do not recall ever reading any post from anyone on Baren that said or > indicated in any way that this was wrong. If you got that impression I sure > would like to see it. Actually, I think it was Graham who went off on people who print mugs and T-shirts, etc. I remember because it happens that a week or so before I had bought a Hanes T-shirt maker package and so I followed up. It was in the context of a lecture on the business side, and the thrust was mostly about saturating your market but also about "cheapening" the art. I think this has happened more than once, I followed up in at least one case. Don't have the whole thing or attributions, but the text from the posting I included in my Oct 20 followup is pasted below. The cloisonne pins quote came from a third party, I don't include my response here. > One person I know has selected images made into > cloisonne pins which he sends out as holiday gifts. No harm there. > > When I find out what a cloisonne pins is then I will comment, but in the > meantime I'm not so sure about that. How far way is that from coffee cups, > baseball caps and Tshirts.????? I, personally, have not gotten my feelings hurt or stayed away as a result of such pronouncements by baren members. I've been on the Internet (mailing lists and newsgroups) for 8 years and the things you guys have said are pretty mild in comparison to some lists (not to mention my customers -- I'm an admin on a college system, after all). But I can see how people who aren't used to that kind of rough-and-tumble could be hurt by it. I can be pretty opinionated myself and that's why I try to throw in something like IMO to indicate I don't consider my opinion the last word. People are free to disagree with or ignore me (and often do :-). Sheryl Coppenger ------------------------------ From: Steiner Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:08:10 +0900 Subject: [Baren 2340] bugs and worms from Richard Steiner/Kyoto Jeanne wondered (Baren 2284) if Fred thot it OK to change colors in mid-edition. Fred is in the back garden at the moment nibbling on an avocado leaf, so I will answer for her. (Both genders of bugs use the same name.) For my part, I think it wrong. I implied as much in my letter. If a color or two or more is changed, it becomes a new work, a different print. You can't maintain the same edition numbering, then. I don't know the legalities, but if I heard of a print artist who did this sort of thing, I would be loath to buying his or her works out of wonderment at why he/she felt the necessity to change colors in mid-stream. It would sound to me like very poor planning. As for including some sort of explanation regarding the Baren Exchange print with each work, I think it is a brilliant idea. I wondered whose idea it was? I wouldn't myself affix it to the back of the print, tho the receiver may wish to do so. Archival paper is best, then. But, it is the paste you have to be aware of. Making sure it has no formaldehyde in it can't be a bad precaution. (We all tramped thru this conversation long ago, so I won't repeat it.) Julio echoes my thots precisely (Baren 2287) when he writes that not doing an edition may well bring more income in the long run than doing editioned works. I wrote as much earlier when I mentioned that two prints became such best sellers, I had to recarve the blocks a second time, the first ones having worn out. For me, however, it is never the cash register ringing that makes me feel sweet. It is knowing that my prints are going into that many more homes, where people will look at and live with them for their own uniqueness, and not their future value on the market. As for the price rising with time, yet the artist not getting any share of it, only the resellers, let me very briefly tell the following: many years ago I had to think about this problem. I came up with a system of tagging every work with a registration number, which meant that the print was registered with a central agency that kept tabs on every work. Every time a piece was sold, the agency had to be notified of that sale. It would then receive, say, 10% of the selling price, take out its commission, and forward the remainder to the artist. (After his/her passing, to whomever had been designated.) This is very brief telling. At another time I will go into more detail. This way, the artist DOES get a slice of all subsequent sales of his/her works. Julio asked "Why should so many others reap so much profit" and he get nothing? They shouldn't. Hence, the system touched upon above. As it is, there is a print security company, OmniGuard (New York) doing the same exact thing, only with theft in mind, not profit sharing. A tiny seal is permanently attached to the piece, acting as a guard and tracer. As I wrote a couple days back, this Baren Forum can and ought to confront the problems facing printmakers and solve them, for everyone's benefit. Sheryl took a lot of time (Baren 2297) to reply to my post. Yes, changing paper may bother some, like your teachers, and not others. But I have trouble with changing colors, as mentioned above. I didn't write that I was offended by artists who take an original and make reprints of it. That was someone else. It doesn't bother me if, as others here have indicated, the reproduction is sold just as that, and not as an original. Well, we aren't getting anywhere with this changing paper/blocks/colors talk. But, as you wrote in regards to lithos, labeling each change as State 1, State 2, State 3, etc., may be the best and most honest way. I just don't know if it would apply to woodblock printmaking, tho. It is not all that easy to make modifications to a block. Oh yes, you can cut away something quite easily, but moving a part of an image from one spot to another, or adding something here or there as with lithos isn't that easy, tho it can be done. Again, as I have said before, and Graham also: good, thorough planning before knife ever touches wood is the answer. The very nature of this art/craft insists on that. When I do a 25 color print, damn if I want to have to fiddle with a color or a shape or a whole block somewhere down the line; the whole house of cards comes crashing down, and I have to start all over again, at a great loss of time and money. Being extemporaneous is what pencils and oils and watercolors are all about, I should think, but not when you have your hands full of knives and pigments and barens. (Oh, boy, is that a can of worms I see being hurled my way? Jezz, I gone and done it again with my opinionated opinions. Think I'll go out back and join Fred in the avocado tree.) Steiner/Kyoto ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V5 #376 ***************************