[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Tuesday, 15 December 1998     Volume 05 : Number 378

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:38:36 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2346] Re: Reissued posts 

Sheryl wrote....
>New images are great, but playing with the old one can be valid to IMO.  I
>like to print on different papers with different inks.  I like to hand color
>some B&W images to see what they look like (and because coloring can be
>fun).  Sometimes I even cut them up and put them back together.  Not all
>images inspire me to do this, but some do and if I didn't go with the
>impulse I think I would be less of an artist.

I agree with this approach and the working up of existing ideas is a part
of what we do.
This debate started with someone saying that changing colour and or paper
gave them a new print.
That is not working up an existing idea.  I spend many hours working up an
idea ,,........before....... making the final print and then will not
re-hash it. To create and image and them a resulting print, and after the
fact, go back and rework is not the my way of arriving at the final. This
is a sort of "it would be better if" which is fine but I do that before
making final art.

>For instance, why have you done more than one lighthouse?

You are comparing theme with the reworking of an image.  All my images are
totally different and stand alone. None are a makeover of one another. They
all have their own atmosphere and character.
Why am I doing them......its like Mt Everest....because they are there.

>Graham, you're repeating yourself. :-)

This is a previlage of age....  (<:

> And I'd really prefer you better
>separated issues of market and issues of art.  They're only the same for
>graphic illustrators (who only work on an image if there's money in it),
>not for "fine" artists.

Agreed.

Graham

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:34:30 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2347] Re: Baren Digest V5 #375 

Jean wrote:
>I'm glad Ray is back online.

Ahhhhhh, how sweet.  Now I have to be nice for the next week or so.  Good to
be back.

BTW - just in case anyone is interested.   The design work on Printhouse is
completed. Now comes the hard part, paying for the construction.  The color 
sceme will be light and dark gray, black, burgundy and white.  I have decided, 
on advice of the architect, not to have as many interior walls as originally 
planned.  This will cut down the number of prints I can hang but wiill improve 
the viewability.  Because the building is over 100 years old we have to do a lot
of preparation to get the walls to the point where they won't fall down.

I haven't the foggiest idea when the grand opening will be.  Part of it is
raising the money and part of it is finding the time.  Between doing art 
and preparing for the gallery/studio plus running the Society
which is a full time job, time is more of a killer than money.

Will keep you up to date.

Cheers

Ray

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:15:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2348] Re: feedback 

>>I know you guys mean well, but I know for a fact (from private emails) that
>>you and Ray occassionally have HURT some of the baren members with your
>>one-sided holy-than-thou  my-way-or-no-way attitude. Some members have
>>stayed away for a period of time because of it.

I agree with everything you have said so will not need to a response direct
to the points made.

BUT....I am the soul of gentility.  For anyone to think you or I have any
intention of hurting another human being in thought, word or deed is 
ridiculus.  I will admit that sometimes, I fire off a note before thinking 
it through but that is lazyness not cruelty.
I am learning to wait a day or two before responding when I am angry.  But
like you, I cannot and will not allow errors of fact or slander to take place 
without response.

>If that were an accurate and factual statement, there are two solutions to
>this.
>1.  I will move on and not help the newbies with there problems guiding
>them with my experience.
> OR (AND I PREFER THIS SOLUTION)
>2.   Those that have thin skins or take everything personal should not read
>my postings.

Well said.   Just look at our names folks.  When you see Graham Scholes or
Ray Esposito, just hit the delete button.  You will miss a lot of great information,
especially from the old pro Graham and a few silly jokes and comments but at least 
your skins will not be penetrated.

Julio apparently feels you and I are too harsh.  Perhaps we have both
made comments that on reflection could have been said in another more gentle
way.  But I do not remember any occasion where either of us has attacked anyone
on purpose or with intention to hurt.  One of the reasons I use smiley's so
much is to let people know I am just pulling their chain.

I may be somewhat old fashion but I really care about everyone on Baren.
Even though I have not met any of them, I consider all of them friends.  
(Actually, in Julio's case, more like a brother-in-law.)  Baren is a family.  
Father David leads us all.  I haven't figured out who the mother should be.  I 
first thought of Jean but decided she was our perfect Crazy Aunt
who occasionally comes down from the attic.  (Jean, said with love and
affection.)  If you think about it, we could come up with quite a family.  And 
you though the Adams family was strange. :-)>>>

>>a lot of others may be looking at you guys for guidance and instruction
>>thru the printmaking world......so please  be careful what you say and specially
>>how you say it.

I am not sure how many are waiting with baited breath for my pearls of
wisdom but to the extent possible I try and I know Graham has a world of 
experience that he can pass on.

What is especially great about Baren is that ALL of us can learn and
contribute. Even the newest members are making exceptional contributions.

Above, I spoke somewhat tongue-in-cheek about family.  But think about it.
What other forum on the Internet would allow such back and forth, yelling at 
each other, sometimes allowing our voices to get a little out of control.  Just 
like a family. But just like any other family, we move on.  We may yell at each 
other but we grow.  And as long as we are all growing as artists, individuals and 
friends, I see nothing wrong with occasionally airing it all out.

I know David would prefer none of this ever come up.  But I would disagree.
While I prefer not to see it often, I think all of this brings us closer together.  If 
Graham and Julio can go at it like this; if Gary, Graham and I can get into it; if 
Jean and I can jump on each other; if others can add their two cents, and we all 
remain freinds, doesn't that just strengthen Baren?  I think it does because I
am not unset with any member I have ever argued with.  I really care about
all of you.

And finally, permit me to make one additional observation.  Julio membered
that in private posts:
>>I know you guys mean well, but I know for a fact (from private emails) that
>>you and Ray occassionally have HURT some of the baren members with your
>>one-sided holy-than-thou  my-way-or-no-way attitude. Some members have
>>stayed away for a period of time because of it.

I think I can speak for Graham here.  First, this may be true since I have
not seen those posts. Second, why are you talking to Julio in private posts if 
Graham or I have written something that upsets you?  If you do not like something 
written but do not want to make an issue of it on Baren, drop us a private post.  
We will not attack.  We will respond in kind.  A friendly jab to the mouth is not life
threatening.  :-)>>>

Under NO circumstances should anyone ever stay away from Baren because of
something that was said or written.  I know I have written some things I wish 
I could take back but both Graham and I have the hides of a Rhino and welcome all 
comments.  But talk to us.

Written in the spirit of making Baren even better and I look forward to
hearing from all of you.

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('Off-topic' post deleted)

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:01:50 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2350] Re: feedback 

Dear Graham, Ray, Julio and all others

I have learned so much from all of you. I hope that you do not think that
all of your "words of wisdom"  fall on deaf ears. A little difference of
opinion is very healthy.
Would you want to belong to the Adamms Family or the Partridge  Family?

Jeanne

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('Off-topic' post deleted)

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:54:19 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2352] Re: Baren Digest V5 #377 

Graham, Julio (or was it Fred?) 
>>Maybe I just like to see my work stamped all over coffee-mugs and
>>t-shirts !!!!

I think that is categorized as Design.  Design is closely related to
Printmaking because of the mass communication nature of the product.
Anyway, people will pay for a T-shirt while they won't pay for the same
thing on a piece of paper.  If you're a starving artist, this is one way to
go.  Fine Art is made just for the need for beauty and/or communication.
The heck with money.  

Graham, everyone admires you because you are so good at what you do, as
well as being occasionally eloquent.   I appreciate your suggestions.
Perhaps the solution is to make a new plate of the same image, as someone
suggested.  More haystacks.  Another lighthouse.  A whole series of views
out my back window.  Maybe I should just rework the sky and call it a new
state.  A new and different pink sunset.  Sun from a different direction.
Trees without leaves perhaps.  Grass green instead of gold.

Graham, if I threatened to quit every time I felt put down, then you would
not have heard from me in months.  Maybe I should have quit back then!
Maybe my words will come back to haunt me.  However, I published a small
newspaper for years, so I don't worry about it so much.  I try not to libel
anyone (saying something that is not true about someone that hurts them).
I try not to say things I know are not true, intentionally trying to hurt
someone (malice).  Making mistakes is normal.

Jean Eger

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('Off-topic' post deleted)

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From: Marco Flavio <mmflavio@slip.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:01:32 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2354] Elmer's wood paste 

I remember somebody saying that Elmer's wood paste works well to repair
a small area that has been accidentally carved.
Is it true?
Thank you and trhank you everybody for all the help I have received
through this list.
It has been truly an irreplaceable source of information,
and special thanks to David Bull for being in and running it.

Marco Flavio

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From: "Roger A. Ball" <beckorro@inquo.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:04:32 -0700
Subject: [Baren 2355] Latest 

Yet another attempt at

http://www.inquo.net/~beckorro/woodcut/bee1b.jpg

About 98% finished and it should be quite possible to have several done by
the end of the year!  Getting good comments from my local fans.  Still a
few lines not showing that need to, flowers not quite there and just a tiny
bit of work on the bee left.  Final cleanup starting tonight and hope to be
ready to _start_ by the weekend.  
:o)
As always, any comments welcomed.

Cherrio,

- -Roger

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('Off-topic' post deleted)

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:52:11 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2357] Re: Be Gentle Ray... 

Very well expressed Ray....Thanks.
Your post #2280] Re: Down with taxes, up with prints" of a few weeks ago
was extremely good, bordering on Profound. For a guy that is new at
practicing but been involved with the arts for years you sure learned good.
Your generousity is wonderful.   Thanks for that......... now about your
jokes.....

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:40:10 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2358] Re: feedback 

Jeanne wrote....
>I have learned so much from all of you. I hope that you do not think that
>all of your "words of wisdom"  fall on deaf ears. A little difference of
>opinion is very healthy.
>Would you want to belong to the Adamms Family or the Partridge  Family?

As long as we don't sit in the bushes or in a tree and throw stones or
sshh......sugar lumps.

Graham

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:24:56 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2359] Re: Latest 

Roger
Just viewed your page. The texture of the paper seems to be coming through,
or is it the way that you handled the watercolor.? Anyway it works.
Watercolor has such an advantage over oils. The oil lays on top of the paper
and negates the texture. I like the effect that it gives. One of these days
I will give up oils and try to print with watercolors.
Also noticed that your Goliath and Tiger Lily is done on walnut. That is a
hard wood to carve!!!!
In case anyone wants to know, Roger has a pet named Fred {really}.
A pet badger.

Jeanne

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('Off-topic' posts deleted)

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From: jimandkatemundie@juno.com (James G Mundie)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:51:21 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2362] editioning 

Matt wrote in V5 #375:

>and James wrote (in post 2300) about keeping an edition entirely 
>consistent and identical: same paper, same blocks/plates, same colors.

Often one sees that someone has printed half of a run on one kind of
paper and the rest on a similar type of paper.  This is usually the
difference between Arches and Rives (both of them white), i.e., a
negligible difference.  However, if one prints on an entirely different
type of paper that radically changes the appearance of the print (say
from white to blue), this should constitute a new state. 

> But James, are you printing mostly black and white?

For the most part, yes.  I do have quite a bit of experience with
printing in color, but don't use it much in my prints these days because
I don't think they require it.  I find that fussing over such and such a
color muddles the whole process.
I'd rather imply color.

>There may be some issues that have not come up for you . . such as when
>printing the seventeenth color on a stack of 70 prints it suddenly
occurs that >adding a bit more indigo might add more richness to the sky,
and you the >printmaker and unknown print enjoyers will be so much
happier for it if you >just . . . follow the notion and reach for the
pigment (not worrying about >editions, and states and the like). 

You are talking about two different traditions here, Matt.  The western
approach says that if you have to change you color halfway through, then
you did a half-assed job of proofing!  :-)   

The Japanese tradition allows for these changes and subtleties to occur
over the course of the run partly because one generally isn't printing a
limited edition anyway, so who cares?... _but_ it is the mark of a master
printer to maintain consistency throughout the run [see John's remark
about Yoshida in post 2324].

>It just doesn't seem to work to have a few color changes constitute a
new >edition.This stifles the edition printing and adds confusion to the
marketing of >the prints when people wonder how a few subtle color
changes constitutes a >new edition.

I didn't say it should be a new edition... I said it should be a new
state if the change substantially changes the appearance of the print.

I think it is much more confusing to present the public with a supposed
limited edition in which this print lacks a block, that one has a
different color sky, etc.  I'm not talking about the subtle changes that
come from a bit more pigment on the brush.  But if I -- though I am a
lowly occidental monochromatic printer [:-D] -- print my block in brown
on beige paper and in black on blue paper (not that I have any desire to
do such a thing), I don't have prints that reflect a uniform edition -- I
have two different states and I should label them as such to make that
perfectly plain to the potential buyer.  

If you'd rather be free to change your mind willy nilly, then don't limit
the edition.  Rather, allow your buyers to choose from all the various
versions and choose the one they like best.

Mise le meas,
James Mundie, Philadelphia USA

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:04:48 -0600
Subject: [Baren 2363] re: more on feedback 

Graham writes:
"Did I miss something.....Who is Fred.?"

Jeanne writes:
"Would you want to belong to the Adamms Family or the Partridge  Family?"

Ray writes:
"I may be somewhat old fashion but I really care about everyone on Baren.
Even though I have not met any of them, I consider all of them friends.
(Actually, in Julio's case, more like a brother-in-law.)  Baren is a family. "


Graham & Ray:  Fred is my uncle who is visiting here from Steinersburg
(Wisconsin) while attending an avocado pickers convention in Chicago. He
played football at Wisconsin U. and as an ex-BADGER  he has a habit of
making a little PEST of himself and has been spending time going over all
the Baren droppings and sending out posts under my name.

As far as family goes, can't agree more with cousin Ray' statement, but  I
think the way you guys keep patting each other in the back we fall more in
line with "Father Knows best" or an episode from  "Leave it to Beaver".
This is nice being that we are in the midst of holiday season.

 Families should be together for the holidays. Fred's girls (Marcia, Jan
and Cindy) are coming in saturday to spend time with us. My kids ( Greg,
Peter & Bobbie) can't wait.  There is a chance my cousin Marcus might fly
in from Welby, he also has three boys ( Robbie, Chip & Ernie). Quite a
large family. It's too bad my aunt Shirley can't come down this year
(ulcers) she also has a large tribe ( Keith, Lorie, Danny, Chris & Tracy).
With them we usually have close to 28 or 29 family members all together.
Probably some future printmakers among them !  Anyway, will probably have
uncle Fred cook his famous avocado STEW and sit around the fireplace eating
POPCORN while grandpa PAUL tell us some old tales.  All in all that is what
the holidays is all about; families spending time together.  Kind of like
what we do here at Baren!

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End of Baren Digest V5 #378
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