[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Tuesday, 9 February 1999 Volume 06 : Number 440 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mary Dornenburg Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:56:06 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2985] Re: Like father, like son ... not! David Bull wrote: > Interesting! What do you think Mary, is Hodaka san's comment some kind > of reaction against his father's way of doing things? Dave, That was my smart mouth twist on a twenty year memory. Some things just don't make it in e-mail. Hodaka was as respectful of tradition as his father, but he was more of an artist/image maker. He was not the son chosen to be the printmaker. He was sent to university I believe in engineering. He painted without his father's knowledge and entered a show and won the top prize. The problem was that his father was awarding the prizes and Hiroshi had to give the prize to his son who was not supposed to be making art. The crisis passed and Hiroshi allowed Hodaka to become an artist. Hodaka taught us the most conservative of techniques and urged us to use the best of materials. (You should see the faces on the gentleman at Yomada Shokai when a western female comes in to order paper.) He was also the most curious man that I ever met. He was interested in almost everything. I believe that is why he let us in the door that first night. He couldn't figure out why we were there unless he did. New techniques were tried and if they measured up to the traditional, then they were to be naturally absorbed into one's technical vocabulary without the kind of contest that we westerners participate in so often with new technology. (My hot new technique is newer than your hot new technique so mine is the better print kind of thing.) With Hodaka, you learned the traditional and you learned it well; but being an artist/printmaker was simply doing work day in and day out with the best tools and materials possble be they old or new and over time you would make your technique strong and clear and you would find your imagery. Hodaka was against my coming back to this country to do my M.F.A.. It made no sense to him to come back and bury myself in a university for three years. That was not the way to good art or good craft. His thinking was that you simply worked at it day after day after day in a quiet rhythm. That was his discipline. His real pleasure was those marathon tea drinking sessions where everything new or interesting was discussed. Cup after cup of green tea and every new idea or show or whatever was discussed. That was where he would casually mention a new idea and it was up to us to work it through and absorb it or reject it without any fanfare. We taught school full time, five days a week, took the train from Fussa to Tokyo and then another to Hodaka's house; but we showed up for each session with blocks cut, prints made, ready to start the session. Hodaka expected nothing less and he worked late into the night with us in return. I couldn't have done it if I hadn't been twenty something at the time. Hodaka Yoshida was interesting, curious, a bit mercurial, but one of the most discilplined craftsman I have ever met. I did not care for his imagery, but I respected the man and I aplogize for being flippant. E-mail is not my medium for clear expression. I do wish that you could see Hiroshi Yoshida"s blocks from the Chinese junk series. They are beautiful heavy cherry blocks that were a treasure to hold and the carving a joy to touch. Like his father in many ways and like his wonderful mother too. She was still painting into her 90's. Mary ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:21:07 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2986] Re: Like father, like son ... not! Mary What a great story. Thank you for sharing it with us. Cheers Ray ------------------------------ From: Gregory Robison Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:11:16 +0300 Subject: [Baren 2987] Moderation of the list Kampala, 9 February 1999 Thank-you Julio and Graham for asking the most recent indignant poster what the fuss was all about. Julio says he's slow on Monday mornings. I'm so slow I usually don't realize somebody has been snubbed until I hear the shell casings hitting the deck. By then the score is (presumably) settled. When I joined this group a number of months back there were some ruffled feathers about something or other and I remember being happy there was so much cyberspace between the members... Some members are pretty fast with a scorper, I reckon, and when I hear some of you Westerners shout "draw!" I'm not always sure it means with a number 2 pencil... But, in fact, I could see that there was so much good will and real substance exchanged in Baren that I quickly concluded it was a good place to be. This is all preamble to say that in a "moderated" list like ours, the members understand and accept that not all submissions will necessarily be published. Self-control is the best guarantee of a good list, but that, supplemented by a little editorial discipline, is even better. I'm on three lists, and get 30 to 40 e-mails a day, sometimes more. Like everyone, I have many interests, and would love to be on even more lists. But for all the benefit I get from being connected in this way here at the ends of the earth, I simply can't handle a lot more volume. The more on-topic, carefully thought-out and properly tagged the messages are, the better. Every message of indignation is followed by one or more defensive counters and sometimes another volley with its own reverberations... None of it "on-topic." I say all this with some hesitation, because part of the attraction of a good list is the spontaneity and personality that comes through from the members. We don't want too eager a hand to have the gavel. For the heavily edited text, we've got the Encyclopaedia, after all. In the spirit of what I have just said, I would not be offended if this were not published, but goes simply to Dave and Graham and whoever else is by right or de facto at the heart of this thing. Along the same lines, if you asked me to cut the verbiage and get the point (again, no offense taken), I would say "you've got my vote if you want to more rigorously apply David's excellent guidelines I read when I joined, and in fact maybe we could revist them and tighten them up a bit." What is the mind of the group on this? Gregory Robison ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:53:23 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2988] Re: Like father, like son ... not! Mary wrote: >E-mail is not my medium for clear expression. I think all who just read your wonderful story may disagree with you on that. That is the kind of story I can relish and find all too little of on Baren since Dave went back to work. (Actually, I know he has never stopped, and is probably back at it even harder now since we don't hear as much from him anymore). You folks who have had the great fortune to have met and worked with the "masters" of the art and craft can shed such interesting light on things that the rest of us can't imagine. This kind of story fleshes out the dry history we read of in the art books done by scholarly authors who never met the folks they write about. I prefer your kind of personal stories. When you get the chance, Mary, write on, I for one will be a rapt audience. Gary ------------------------------ From: Jean Eger Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:18:59 -0800 Subject: [Baren 2989] archival tape Dave, Some of the discussion on archival tape could go in the encyclopedia, don't you think? That way I don't have to re-read all the barens in order to find it again. Surgical tape was probably suggested to me because I have so much of it around, having suffered from some kind of skin problem on my fingers for several years. The doc says its excema. It seems to be an athlete's foot kind of fungus because it responds a little bit to Tinactin. God, I don't want to discuss my illnesses on this forum! Jean Eger ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:38:03 +0900 Subject: [Baren 2990] Re: Moderation of the list Greg (Robinson) wrote: > This is all preamble to say that in a "moderated" list like ours, the > members understand and accept that not all submissions will necessarily be > published. Actually Greg, I long ago turned off the 'moderated' switch. All postings go out automatically to the members without human intervention, including the post you just made! If it ever turned out that a lot of flaming started up, I would quickly switch it back on, but I have neither any intention of doing so, nor desire to do so. (Aside from the fact that you would all have to wait for messages until I woke up here in Tokyo ...) > I say all this with some hesitation, because part of the attraction of a > good list is the spontaneity and personality that comes through from the > members. We don't want too eager a hand to have the gavel. I'm completely with you here. (And in fact, due to the time lags involved, I didn't even see this morning's small exchange until it was all over ... There was no hand on the gavel!) > ... David's excellent guidelines I read when I joined, and in fact > maybe we could revise them and tighten them up a bit." Suggestions are welcome. The guidelines Greg is referring to are in the General Information Message on the [Baren] web site ... http://www.woodblock.com/forum Dave ------------------------------ From: "Ray Esposito" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:54:42 -0500 Subject: [Baren 2991] Re: Moderation of the list Greg Since Dave just beat me to answering your post while I was writing this, perhaps I am can add something to the discussion. All of your points are well made and have my support except for any editing of the list. Baren is a free flowing list of ideas and should remain that way. Occasionally, and fortunately it is only occasionally, things get out of hand but so does life. One problem was that even the light heartedness and joking got a little overboard but if we censor fun and laughter, then we are in deep trouble. But this is a forum for woodblock. Dave solved this problem by creating Baren After Five. Here we discuss art but also everything you would talk about in your local hang-out. I may be prejudice but I think BA5 has been a huge success and as a result, much of the unwanted posts on Baren have ceased. Having said that, permit me to also say that I would be against all jokes and fun comments to be eliminated altogether on Baren. What sets Baren apart from most other art related forums, and I too belong to many, is that they are interminally dull and do not inspire anyone to jump in an participate. After some time they become elitist and slowly die. I believe part of the problem is too many people are afraid of offending someone on the list. Here at Baren we try to encourage everyone to participate and if we need to joke a little to make them feel welcome and comfortable then I say go for it. At the same time, the real heavy joking and "fooling around" that went on in the past is now on BA5. I think the results have been a more efficient Baren that maintains the friendly, family feeling that induces everyone to participate plius gives all of us a chance to loosen up on BA5. Now, having said that permit me to address, in as muted a way as possible, the latest difficulty. When someone, out of the blue and with vicous intent, attacks me or anyone else on Baren, I do not turn the other cheek. It is not my style. I know Dave hates this and perhaps I do too but it just isn't me. Vicous, unprovoked attacks have no place here. Unfortunately, the internet gives cover to people to say things that they would not say to ones face. The bottom line is simple. Baren should be a place to discuss the art of woodblock with enough lightheartedness to allow someone to tell a joke or feel comfortable enough to take a jab once in a while. Baren After Five should be a place for us to yell and laugh, tell dumb stories and hit on each other as friends often do and to share experiences. I believe Dave has accomplished much with Baren and it is the best forum on the net bar none. You made some other comments I would like to address but this is already too long and with your permission will do so in a future post. Thank you for your comments and views. I hope others will jump in with their ideas. And....may I point out, this long point - counter point has absolutely nothing to do with woodblock. :-) Cheers Ray ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:40:48 -0800 Subject: [Baren 2992] Thanks Mary, Bea Gold Mary, Your story was wonderful - you're a great story teller - they both sound like wonderful people and teachers and I envy the experience - you keep writing and I'll keep on reading! (thought I sent this message already but can't find it - did you get two?) Bea ------------------------------ Subject: [Baren 2993] Deleted posting End of Baren Digest V6 #440 ***************************