[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Saturday, 27 February 1999     Volume 06 : Number 463

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:02:24 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3243] Re: Baren Digest V6 #461 

Graham said, regarding the workshop:
It is to bad we weren't closer and you could drive over to attend.
If you guy's do any camping there is a provincial campsite a mile down
the
road and it would be very convenient.   Jim could do the cooking and you
could get cooking. Just a thought.

How far is the drive from Northeast Ohio to where you live?
Jim loves to camp and we haven't done it since the boys were 
teenagers.  We camped our way to Cape Breton that year. 
And we've been to California  twice that way.

* * * *
In preparing the brush by using the dragonskin, do you do the whole
surface of the brush?  For some reason, I thought you were supposed
to do the outer edges all around the brush and leave the center
area alone?  Where did I get that?

* * * *

Welcome, Jean.  How are we going to distinguish between
the two Jeans who spell their name the same?  Jean N. and 
Jean P?  The brush information was interesting, Jean P. Thanks
for sharing. 

Gayle Wohlken

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:26:31 EST
Subject: [Baren 3244] Oops 

I previously mistakenly quoted a message which came from Gayle, not Jean -
sorry - Sarah

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:25:23 EST
Subject: [Baren 3245] Re: Baren Digest V6 #461 

Jean wrote:
> In preparing the brush by using the dragonskin, do you do the whole
 surface of the brush? 

First you singe the brush by putting it face down in a hot pan or pie plate
(that you don't use for food anymore!) - I do this on the fire escape on a hot
plate so it doesn't stink up my apartment - then you wet the brush and brush
it back & forth on the dragonskin - the whole brush gets brushed back & forth
- - and continue to dip the brush in water from time to time as you do the
brushing - hope this helps--

Sarah

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:06:20 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3246] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #460 

Greg wrote....
>Alas, a board foot cannot be created by this sort of alchemy, regardless of
>how reasonable the sawyer's charges seem. A board foot is a unit of volume
>equal to the cubic contents of a piece of wood one foot by one foot by one
>inch.

Dare I......
The given is that a board ft = one foot by one foot by one inch.   SO..
These board are 13 inch......making it one inch bigger than the foot so
technically you can't get away with calling the lumber a board ft.  However
when the tables are turned and you buy a board ft of dressed lumber it come
one foot x 11 1/2" x 3/4".
So on this basis Jean you are right in calling the stuff board feet.  What
is 1" between friends.  In this case ...nil ...... ziltch..... didlly
squat....noddings.....

Jean wrote....
>Today I went to MacBeath Hardwood in Berkeley and bought two boards of
>basswood 5 feet by 13 inches by 2 inches,

I missed the   ....two boards.... when I sent you information re costs.
Sorry about that.
I calculated everything based on one board or..... 10 board ft ...when in
fact it is 20 bd/ft

So on that bases you got a good deal...
2 pieces 5' x 13"x 2" equates out to be 20 bd/ft......divide into 85.00 =
$4.25.
The $35.00 for rework comes to  =  $1.75   So you paid 6.00 a board ft.

If we are not friends then we have to call it a running foot.....

God we milked this subject.....

Regards,

Graham

You can see what happens now that I have finished that print.
Look out Folks.
Here come'd Jokes

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From: Elizabeth Atwood <elizuno@midcoast.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:57:27 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3247] Emily Carr 

Welcome new members!!

Gary, Julio, Graham....
It is wonderful to hear that there are so many of the group who are
familiar with Canadian artists.....Emily Carr and the Group of Seven. I
have read her books....whatta gal!(Our U.S. school children are taught very
little about Canada and, I fear, it becomes a lifelong habit for many.)

Thanks, Sarah, for the first-hand explanation of the ballbearing baren and
David for prompting me to look at the ency. The bb baren sounds like
something I'd like to try. Do you have a source?

Andrea......I plan to try some of your methods in reduction printing. (My
favorite way to produce an edition.....and be done with it.) In using a
baren instead of a press it is a little harder to get an even effect  with
variation of pressure.....but it is a good suggestion for less ink buildup.
I like the your idea of doing seperate blocks for color groups.......it
opens up some areas which I must explore.......ElizA

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From: "Gregory D. Valentine" <gvalen@linfield.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:35:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 3248] 3 questions 

  Three questions, Barens and Barenesses:
 1)     I'm thinking about ways to get a more intense color
off the block, than by using tubed watercolor, so I wonder if anyone has
experience with powdered pigments?  One of the attractions to me of w/c
over oil is the lack of solvents, so what are the hazards and precautions
of using powdered pigments, and is there a marked advantage in color or
other feature?
 2)     I have a drawing ready, and now I'm considering the color
separations.  It seems to me this is a really crucial aspect of the
appearence of the print, but not one that is dealt with much in the
literature.  I suppose it's more philosophic than practical; of what I
want: simple or complex, iconic or modeled, or whatever.  There are prints
like French-African colonial stamps, of two colors (or more) but the
colors never overlap; each pictoral unit is its' own color, which may be
carved with great detail.  There is a print I like very much, by James
Dexter Havens ('Wind and Snow') done in three colors, each elaborately
carved (as with the French colonial stamps,) almost like a wood engraving,
but overlapping, creating subtle shadings.  There are many prints I admire
that have basically a key block, not necessarily black, and one or two
colors underneath for effect, to pick out detail.  One on my wall is by
Maekawa Sempan.  Or the great Hiroshige and Hokusai prints, done with a
very limited palatte. (I believe at some point there was an edict against
using more than four blocks?)  There are the prints by the shin masters,
the Yoshidas, etc, which daunt the imagination in their complexity.
         I'm just looking for some thoughts here.  For myself, I've
decided to cut and print this several ways: in black-and-white (I do love 
the strength of b&w), maybe in four colors, maybe again with more.     
  3)     OK, third question; in my landscapes I always have trouble with
the fore-ground.  I'm a little winded from ques. 2, so I'll just leave it
at that.  Any thoughts?

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:27:00 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3249] Re: On the ball ... 

Elizabeth wrote:
 
> Thanks, Sarah, for the first-hand explanation of the ballbearing baren and
> David for prompting me to look at the ency. The bb baren sounds like
> something I'd like to try. Do you have a source?

Back to the Encyclopedia!  

http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/entries/007_01/007_01_frame.html

***

Greg asked three questions, but only one is in 'my' department ...

> I'm thinking about ways to get a more intense color
> off the block, than by using tubed watercolor, so I wonder if anyone has
> experience with powdered pigments? 

Mixing up your own colours from dry pigments is indeed one way to get
intense colours, and here in Japan, this is the way that most
traditional printmaking is done.

I keep my selection of seven basic pigment types stored in tightly
sealed glass jars, in which I have poured a 50/50 mix of water and pure
alcohol - just enough to turn the powder into a thickish paste.

When it's time to mix a colour, I scoop out paste as needed from
different jars, and put it in a small teacup (or mixing mortar sometimes
...).  I then add water to bring it to the dilution I want.

If you are looking for deep and rich colour in the print, then you won't
need much water - just enough to turn the paste into a thick sludgy
liquid.  

If on the other hand, you want delicate thin colours, then pour in the
water ...

The seven 'colours' are:
ai (indigo) 
gunjo (prussian blue)
shu (vermillion)
hon yo ko (a deep and dark red) 
bengara (a rusty brown red) 
shin seki-ei (a yellow compound)
sumi (carbon black)

Dave

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From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:50:57 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3250] Re: On the ball ... 

David Bull mentions his powdered colors. We should note however that true 
vermillion is an unstable form of mecuric sulphide which may turn black and
is better substituted with Cadmnium Red light.
Regarding permanence its a good idea to do your own tests as I have found
the ratings of the sellers unreliable. This is especially true of Winsor
Newton whose pigment names and permanence cannot be trusted.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:06:26 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3251] Winsor Newton unreliable !!! 

Daneil wrote....
>Regarding permanence its a good idea to do your own tests as I have found
>the ratings of the sellers unreliable. This is especially true of Winsor
>Newton whose pigment names and permanence cannot be trusted.

Winsor Newton cannot be trusted!!!!!
This comes as a total surprise to me. They were to standard a few years
ago. What has happened to their reputation and quality.????
Where did you get your information regarding this.

Graham

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From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:14:49 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3252] Re: Winsor Newton unreliable !!! 

Thank you Graham,
I got the idea that they are unreliable when Winsor Red (whatever that
means) faded on my early woodblock prints.
 I like it when makers use names like Cadmium and other inert metals. Don't
you?

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:49:53 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3253] Winsor Red 

 Daniel wrote....
>I got the idea that they are unreliable when Winsor Red (whatever that
>means) faded on my early woodblock prints.

This indeed is surprising news.  I might go and test the pigment again. I
gather that your statement is based on the experience of Winsor Red.  Have
you any other experiences that varify that WN is not good?  I have used
this colour for years and it is my choice both for manufacture and the
colour of windsor red. I can control the temperature of this colour and it
responds extremely well. It is some what staining and extremely transparent
(A feature that is a priority in most of my palette), unlike the Cadmiums
which are opaque.  I pick a colour that is tested to be durable or better
and then for it's qualities.  You should read my book Watercolor and How by
Watson Guptill. The discussion about colours is worth a trip to the
library. It is now out of print so if you find one go for it.
Incidentally I would never use these pigments for woodblock printing ......
far to expensive. Also intensity of colour is not as great as with other
forms of pigment.   Find some quality powder pigments like Golden or
Gamblin or better still colourants that are colours already suspended for
ease of use. No frigging around with alcohol which seems to get sidetracked
in the mixing. (I wonder why my eye sight was failing when using that mix).

It is interesting to note that all windsor colours are thalocyanide
(spelling?) colours, man made from dyes essentially.  Grumbacher uses the
term Thalo and is registered so no one else can use it.  Lucas uses the
term Helio.
So in a nut shell Daniel that is what Winsor colour are.

Hope this helps,

Graham

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From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3254] Re: Winsor Red 

Hi Graham
You ask:
>I gather that your statement is based on the experience of Winsor Red.
>Have you any other experiences that varify that WN is not good?"

My problem in part stems from their system for judging light fastness. The
pigments they put their own name on one would think..... well you know the
red faded. I'd decide on my own if they simply used chemical names. But they
perhaps want to hide the dyestuff names as not everybody accepts them. For
years they were considered not acceptable for artist's use. Under the label
they openly sell paint considered unsuitable by Ralph Meyer in The Artist's
Handbook such as the well know lakes and other fugitives

> I have used
> this colour for years and it is my choice both for manufacture and the
> colour of windsor red. I can control the temperature of this colour and it
> responds extremely well. It is some what staining and extremely transparent

Haven't you noticed it bleed through the paper in your prints? This is a
sign of a condition in which the color is migrating away from the surface
where you see it. One print of mine from 1983 began to show the red through
the paper immediately. (I used Arches 90lb. hot press.) The printer I worked
with at the time warned me about this. When the prints are printed damp over
a long time this accelerates. Perhaps humidity is a factor as well. I just
saw a copy from the drawer which appears to be as it was. But I cringe each
time I go to my auto garage and see a copy looking anemic on their office
wall far away from direct sunlight.

> I pick a colour that is tested to be durable or better
> and then for it's qualities

Your talking about trust here. I only say do your own testing to be sure.

> I would never use these pigments for woodblock printing ......
> far to expensive. Also intensity of colour is not as great as with other
> forms of pigment.

So why defend it? There are plenty of makers out there. As for the costs I
find the price of paint, whatever kind, not to be a significant part of the
sales price.

> Find some quality powder pigments like Golden or
> Gamblin or better still colourants that are colours already suspended for
> ease of use.

I also know Golden sells some low quality paints for hobby folks

> It is interesting to note that all windsor colours are thalocyanide
> (spelling?) colours, man made from dyes essentially.
> So in a nut shell Daniel that is what Winsor colour are.

No Graham that's not accurate. Winsor sells all kinds of pigments including
cadmium. Personally I like thalo greens and blues to work with. The Winsor
red is probably (me to, I can't spell) qinacridone or napthol. No?
Do you not like Daniel Smith's watercolors. He claims they are permanent.

As for my work I personally use the dye pastes you and David Bull mentioned.
I recommend those I get them from:
Kremer Pigments
228 Elizabeth Street
NY NY 10012
Tel (212) 219 2394

Cheers,
D

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End of Baren Digest V6 #463
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