[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Thursday, 18 March 1999      Volume 06 : Number 492

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:17:38 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3601] Re: Baren Digest V6 #490 

Rhonda said:
> Gary- I don't use a baren-I use a plain ole 25 cent wooden spoon.  There are
> some of us here who are still using primitive methods...... :-). 

Gary and Rhonda, the same applies for me--wooden spoon and
a lot of burnishing.  It's funny that Gary brought it up.  Just
yesterday
was art day here and I was working with my friend Beth at the
art tables and we were listening to some Jeanne Newhall music,
and I got to musing about the Baren and wondered how long it 
would be before we heard a little protest about all the press and
etching talk since Dave started this as a woodblock site.  So here
it is!  All of it is interesting to me, but way over my head since I'm
not doing that sort of thing myself.  You have to be doing it to
appreciate
it, at least it's that way for me.  Take Dave's lessons on knife
sharpening.
Yesterday I finally printed it out and took it downstairs and studied
it and started working with my cutting tools and sharpening.  For the
first time since I got those tools, I was able to sharpen them to 
where they actually cut better into the wood and not worse.  So what
I'm trying to say is that some people will feel sort of bored by the
etching talk because that's not what's going on with their work,
but some will be energized by it.  A balance seems good.  A little
of each maybe?

Gayle

------------------------------

From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:19:07 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3602] Re: Viscosity printing

Gary
You bring up some excellent points.  One of the reasons for BA5 was to move
many such discussions that did not involve woodblock away from Baren.

But I disagree with most of your observations.

I disagree that the discussions concerning presses is out of bounds.  I am a
woodblock artist.  The fact that I prefer etching inks and a press should
not disqualify me from the forum.  Although little of the discussion has
been about a "baren" they have still been mostly about woodblock and how to
produce the best art we can.  I do not see that anyone should leave Baren
because they use a press.

The recent discussion concerning viscosity printing is germaine because I
use viscosity to ink my plates, INCLUDING woodblock.  If Baren is for
woodblock artists then why is this not a legitimate subject?

One way around this is to join the discussions.  I might point out that you
have not been a participant.   Join in.  Come up with a subject that is near
and dear to your heart and we will all join in.  But please do not look down
on me because I use a press and not a baren.

One problem I see is that only half of Baren members are on BF5.  Some
discussions begin on Baren and it is impossible to get anyone to move over.
If you, Dave, or anyone else has a suggestion, I would certianly love it.


And finally, it is not up to me to toss anyone out on their ear in Baren.
Be this feisty on BA5 and we will see.  :-))
And as for your Pepsi, you need to come over to BA5.  It is NOT a fit
subject for Baren!!! :-O

Cheers
Ray

------------------------------

From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:29:37 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3603] Re: Vox Populi ... and Vox Dei ... 

Dave
I won't comment on the press gang subject as I covered that in my response
to Gary.  I might only add that we need some way to get more conversatiuons
over to BA5.

As to:
>Thing #2)  The exchange - and the 'Print Folio Refusee Show' comments

I think one of us has misread this.  I took this as a tongue in cheek
comment from Agatha and Wanda jumped in saying she would join in a
two-person exchange.  I then told Wanda I wanted to make it a three-way
exchange. As I read the posts, this was never serious, at least on my part
and we were just having a little fun.  I think we all know that the new
print exchange you designed solved any problems.

Cheers
Ray

------------------------------

From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:08:20 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3604] Re: Viscosity printing 

Dear Gary
I do not think you have to worry about the Baren doing an endangered species
act.
I have a wonderful Etan Press. I use it for collagraphs and etchings, but
when it comes to my wooblock printing, there is something very satisfying
and even sensual about using the Baren as I do my prints. Yesterday I did 50
prints by hand with the help of Mozart on my stereo. It was a great day. I
do not think that I could have had that much pleasure using my press.
I also have a tender wrist to prove it, but worth every sore muscle.

Jeanne, the Baroness

------------------------------

From: dean brink <interpoetics@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:27:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3605] Re: Vox Populi ... and Vox Dei ... 

I really like your thoughtful formula for keeping the exchanges small and
so that all can participate, David.

About splintering the printing forum into press/baren discussions...it is
unnecessary I think. Threads will naturally develop and fade into the
archives, following the whim and whatever topics individual participants
are obsessed with at a given time. It might be counterproductive
(especially if you are interested in cultivated a technically/culturaly
explorative forum on "woodblock printing" (which is what I am interested in
in all its traditional and experimental forms)). 

Just think of Baren discussion as your community service or cultural
contribution that has taken on a life of its own? I like your solution of
keping the social niceties to "After 7." But "After Baren," if it would be
just for traditional Japanese water-based printing, would exclude a lot of
folk, and without the differences there will be no dialogue and learning
(except in the old style of learning where master towers and the silent
disciples - which wouldn't be a discussion forum (only social
nosing(after#s))). 

Looking forward to the reflexive debates on the meta-Baren,
dean

------------------------------

From: amoss@mindspring.com (John Amoss)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:32:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baren 3606] oil and water 

I admit that I only scan the oil/press postings. This is only becasue I
have as much as I can handle with the water technique, it's certianly not a
validity thing.

However, I am interested in the fringes of my focus and probably would have
never known that "viscosity printing" or many more things existed if it
weren't for the oil group. I think it would be a mistake for me not to pay
attention to these oil postings because somewhere, new techniques can be
synthesized from the two camps leading to possible breakthroughs. The oil
group is on a roll now, but I have confidence that the pendulum will swing
back amidships again.

Why isn't there more water-based entries? I admit that most of my questions
are answered by the Encyclopedia if I dig hard enough. Along with the
knowledge that experience is the best teacher, my questions have slowed to
a trickle. I consider this a compliment to Dave and everyone else that has
contributed. Therefore, I think the amount of [Baren] entries on the
subject is little evidence of the information actually being gained. If
there is another site with more oil information to guide folks, perhaps the
on-list communication wouldn't be as previlent.

I am scared to suggest this, but maybe the forums should be split into 4 groups:

The first, an overview:
(1) Baren (general woodblock)

with two concentrations:

(2) Oil and press woodblock
(3) Hanga woodblock

And the famous:

(4) Baren after five


It would be wierd that the oil/press group is under the heading of "Baren",
but Dave's site is named "woodblock.com".

What would the set-up labor entail? If Dave wants to outsource
resposibilities, Ray has proven that volunteers can make great hosts.

Dave may not want to extend the site further. Maybe a sister-site for the
woodblock pressers?

I think that this is a more serious question than the one that led to
making "Baren After Five". I would just hate to lose touch with our oil
bretheren, both in information, exchanges and comraderie.

- -John

------------------------------

From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:06:03 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3607] Re: Vox Populi ... and Vox Dei ...

Dear Dave
You know that the Salon de Refusee was a joke on the After 5. I am sure that
we all realize that with 80 people represented it would be impossible to
include them all in one Exchange.
I am sure that we all understand the significance of Exchange 2, 3 and 4 and
will cheerfully abide by the rules without any complaining. It is just
logical that we will wait our turn.
Perhaps the rule of thumb is;  If any chit chat or jokes or subjects other
than serious questions, answers, information etc; should be absolutely be a
part of After 5. Since at last count there were 30 on After 5, that means
that 50 would rather not . At least it gives us a fellowship that some
appreciate.
We owe so much to you and respect what you are doing , I am sure noone wants
to make you wish that you had never started The Baren! Myself and many
others would be unhappy if you felt otherwise.
Put on your happy face and let us all print away!

Jeanne

------------------------------

From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:05:14 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3608] Re: The Next Exchange ... 

david, i think your system for the print exchange is wonderful.  i hope we
didn't offend you with our jokes about the salon.  i just thought it was a
funny image, no slam was intended in your direction.  i appreciate all of
the work you have put into [baren], i consider it the most valuable
printmaking resource on the net.  i only hope that i will someday have the
experience i need to be able to talk about the techniques you all use with
as much knowledge as the rest of the group.  the discussion about press vs.
baren has left me feeling somewhat alienated, although i am sure that was
not the intent.  at any rate, i felt i should explain my somewhat snappy
comments that i posted hastily, and regretted almost instantly.

David Bull wrote:

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:11:34 +0000
Subject: [Baren 3609] Re: oil and water 

John Amoss wrote:
> I am scared to suggest this, but maybe the forums should be split into 4 groups:

Yikes! As I suggested already, purhaps we should just wait a bit to see which way
the subject matter winds before we get out our chisels and start carving up Baren.

Jack Reisland

------------------------------

From: "Ramsey Household" <cjramsey@mind.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:25:52 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3610] Re: Viscosity printing 

Woodblock prints are not just done with a baren.  They are also done on
presses with blankets, etc.  I, for one, have been very interested in the
discussions that have been going on.  I think it is better to be inclusive,
rather than exclusive.  There are many areas that overlap.  But this is my 
personal opinion and it is not my list.  However, since there have been
many postings, it must be others opinions also.  Relief printing takes many
forms.

Carolyn  

------------------------------

From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:38:14 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3611] Re: oil and water

John
As always, a thoughtful post.  But I must disagree with you.  My
disagreement is that when you are discussing woodblock it is almost
impossible in many cases to separate subjects so cleanly.  What if I asked
the question:  Because of my arthritis in my hands I have problems using a
baren.  Can anyone suggest how I can learn to do so or should I use a press?
ANd while on the subject, can you suggest how I might incorporate my etching
inks and water colors?

Obviously this is a loaded questions but I just want to make a point.  I
think it is best to keep just two lists and when Dave thinks things are
getting a little out of hand, he will gently nug us back.

I do agree with you on one point.  (Besides the obvious one of my being a
great host.  :-))  This is woodblock.com and all aspects of woodcut,
Japanese vs European, oil vs watercolor, press vs baren, should be open for
discussion.  From a personal standpoint, I have learned from both camps and
want to continue to learn.  There are many forms of woodblock and we must
respect and hear from them all.

That's my opinion.  John, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Cheers
Ray

------------------------------

From: James G Mundie <jimandkatemundie@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:53:03 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3612] attempt #2 to change the subject 

I believe it was Jeanne that mentioned she would welcome the posting of
the exchange prints as a way to receive helpful critique(s).  What say we
leave this viscosity printing versus temporally displaced Edo craftsmen
debate aside for a time and get into some meaty discussion?

Okay, I'll get it going and maybe someone else will join in:

Jeanne, I found the way in which you handled the right hand on your
figure interesting, but perhaps a little confusing.  Leaving that heavy
line to indicate the change of plane from knuckles to finger in
ingenious; but combined with that line across the wrist it looks like she
is wearing a fingerless glove.  Was that your intention?  My eye keeps
going to it and I wonder, "Why is she wearing that glove?!"

Dean, you mentioned in your process description that you were interested
in achieving a more transparent red.  I think that would greatly help
your print to "read" more easily.  If the red were more transparent,
there would be a nice visceral purple where the colors intersect that
would probably help reinforce your directional lines. There are a number
of transparent bases and extenders on the market you might try.  The
secret is to add tiny bits of color to a larger amount of transparent
base to achieve the desired effect.

James Mundie, Philadelphia USA

------------------------------

End of Baren Digest V6 #492
***************************