[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest               Friday, 19 March 1999       Volume 06 : Number 493

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From: "Jean D Parus" <ltz797@dreamscape.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:12:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3613] Contributions

Dear All :
I am a relatively new member and I am very concerned at the oil versus water
versus baren versus press. I feel deeply grateful to Dave Bull for his great
advice on technique but, I also like all the other stuff. Why does EXTRA
information have to be a problem? If there is disappointment because it
seems like there are not too many posts on Hanga style cutting .... Hey! I'm
from Pennellville .... where would I get an insight on Hanga that would be
useful ? I'm a professional artist but .... this is very specialized
information. The problem for me is, how I can contribute .... for instance,
line drawing is one of my biggest interests, hence the interest in this
site, a special interest in the Japanese style, however, I don't have a
scanner yet and must limit myself to what I know. I don't have aisukis etc.
.... so I've been cutting my dragon print with double beveled blades that I
got from a jeweler's supply house and microgouges from Woodcraft Supply. The
jewler's blades are nothing more than exactos with an extra bevel ... yet,
with a clear idea of the end product ... I like the way the print is
progressing....To clean out the larger areas so that there are no ink blots
on the print, I am having to resort to a cabinetmaker's paring chisel. I am
signing up this summer for a course on making my own tools (graver's) that
is being given online, thinking of edging into wood engraving .... is this
bad? The blades are incredibly sharp and when they wear out (5 blades for
$1.15) I throw them out. For beginner's, I think they are a great idea. I go
to a local guy for some cherry that is almost 100% clear faced. So far, I
love the cherry ... it seems hard but has a certain resiliency that I
haven't found in other woods. I tried maple, poplar and pine and was not
interested enough in their line carrying ability to even finish the print.
My first block of cherry was IT. Someone wanna trade some cherry for
some more authentic tools? How can we keep this forum on line and what might
that be? I have loved all the great info from the great artists on this
board. I go here every day. I don't think that there should be any split ...
I thought it would be natural for everyone to go all over the place ... can
we keep a focus of trying to put one good Hanga-related idea for every other
type that we are tempeted to post .... then the percentages will work to
keep the original idea of the Baren on track. Simple ideas are good.

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:05:41 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3614] Re: attempt #2 to change the subject 

James
Having been an art instructor for years, I welcome constructive remarks. You
are right. I rushed to look at my print and I can see where the line at the
wrist juncture could be misinterpreted.
I am a realist and it comes with a little difficulty to loosen up. The lines
in the print are indiscriminate and could be somewhat confusing.
Sometimes it is hard to look at your own work and see the mistakes. As I get
to be a better printmaker , I will look at them with a more discerning eye.

Could be a glove, a bracelet, a watch.........but methinks it was a mistake.

Thanks
I appreciate your candor

Jeanne

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:31:38 -0600
Subject: [Baren 3615] Re: attempt #3 to change the subject 

It seems that some of us have taken Gary's posting a bit on the heavy side. I
perceived Gary's posting as a plea for more postings on hanga &
baren-printing....rather that a complain against  the press/oil postings. I find
myself going to the pedia for answers instead of going to the group....that's a
tribute to everyones contributions...

 Although I don't own a press and don't have any plans at the moment to obtain
one....I find the postings and knowledge distribution interesting. I learn new
things....and who knows....I might someday just find me a press laying around
somewhere....

If I  can survive over a year's worth of the friendly battles & chit-chat
postings between Graham & Ray , the ongoing battle over computer
art/reproductions  vs.  "real" prints and/or "to number or not number " your
edition.............I can also endure this latest expose. I can't afford the
time to belong to & contribute to anymore lists nor do I want to.  No more
splits....please!

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:36:10 -0600
Subject: [Baren 3616] Re: Viscosity printing 

Daniel writes:
>This group though by its very name
>is about Japanese wood block prints. If you want to destroy the study and
>advancement of this approach then water it down with all the other print
>techniques.

Hi Daniel.....I certainly agree with your definition between "woodblock" & "wood
cut" prints. I disagree with your statement above. Many times Dave has indicated
that this forum is open to all kinds of wood printing. Had it not been so, the
discussions about oil & presses would have been subtly dismissed long time ago.

All you have to do is look at the guidelines for the first print exchange....and
the future exchanges...they clearly indicate what type of prints are
allowed.....it makes me think that if the prints are allowed...so must
discussion about them !

You must understand this. Dave's PERSONAL web page IS about japanese woodblock
prints &his printmaking and his work on the traditional ukiyoe style. The Baren
Forum is about printmaking with woodblocks....all techniques apply!

Sorry....I know I was trying to change the subject before ....but could not help
myself........

JULIO  {:-)

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:52:24 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3617] Re: Book 

Daniel wrote....
>Could you clarify a bit what you want regarding the inks?

>> I suppose information regarding the European
>> method of opaque inks of water of oil base would be a plus.

Ops a fingeroedian happened .....should read
'method of opaque inks and water or oil base would be a plus.'

Sorry

Graham

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From: "David Stones" <stones@mb.i-chubu.ne.jp>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:39:16 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3618] Re: and Baren users et al

Dear All,

I don't weigh in much these days, a hint that the drift to mechanical
methods on screen is more prevalent. I left the presses when I came to
Japan and started to create woodblocks - my friend Dave B's Forum is a nice
spot to help a wider world know what we've found. I give quite a few talks
and am often asked why I "like" woodblock, and always find I mention its
one great point beyond anything technical... it's very kind to our
environment, and I'm very much trying to get those who print art to think
just WHAT they are doing with all those chemicals, machines and the rest.
Woodblock, addressed simply on the production side, can result in almost
all its materials, paper, inks and the rest being returned to the natural
environment from where they came. That is the only reason I'd like more to
follow the process... and to ease up on the use of those presses, oil-based
inks and rooms that need super ventilation (ever thought where those
gasses/waste inks go?).

But, that's not to say the press/computer users should stop commenting as
they feel some heat... I'd better (quickly) add I've found photographs of
Dave S here hand pulling posters on a cast iron Columbia Press... 4 tons to
the square inch for pressure and muscle power to pull a copy - wooden type
inked with oil press-inks and memories of minding rotary presses (thick
with ink-drying spray and no ventilators!). I was 20 then. Now? Now I also
spend quite a bit of time learning computer-aided printing design (an a
Mac...  this post's on Windows, so don't give me wisecracks here - both are
just my tools).  But the main art direction is hand-produced woodblock
work - as I've realized its strengths.

So, Dave B, and the baren wielders et al, Baren Forum is a medium to not
always pass on "baren-only produced" art but is probably a place to show
that woodblock print art need not be an expensive, machinery-bound process
that needs a degree in engineering/chemical analysis - with success
measured by  the number of exhibitions/sales... Woodblock can be done on
the floor with a table or two knocked together from scrap - and all that
it needs is NO complex techniques just the SKILL to use the few hand tools
you have - with your bare hands... plus, to realize you can do it all
yourself. Baren Forum provides the information needed but it cannot give
the skill - and many members have already found out that, actually,
woodblock can be so simply done... Try it. Before its gone.

Dave S

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:33:53 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3619] Reply 

To all of you who have responded to my posting yesterday,   I will try to
answer all of you collectively.

To have an open mind about different tools and techniques is good.

To have humor and light chat among friends is good.

To be willing to discuss and critique others work or methods is good if
done constructively.

"Elite-ism" is irrelevant here, if perceived,  was a misunderstanding.   

Baren After Five was to remove the pure socializing from Baren, not provide
a forum for different techniques.   Though of course any topic to socialize
on was fair game.   Still is, within the limits of kindness and decency,
right Ray?

No discussions are "out of bounds", but where is the anchor for Baren set,
because it seems to be slipping into different waters?   I have been a
member of Baren since its debut and have experienced all the vicissitudes
it has gone thru, moving from topic to topic, and though they might have
been of no or little interest to me  I rode through them because I felt the
basic theme of the forum was still there.   Lately however, the last few
months, I have noticed the theme seems to be changing to something else. I
am not against other forms of printing, and am not setting one up to be
better than another, but where does this end?  The forum was after all a
gathering place for woodblock printers of primarily the hanga school to
gather and exchange information pertaining to that craft.

All of the arts overlap.  Moving from Hanga to press printing, why limit it
there?  How about lithography, photography, watercolor painting, oil
painting, acrylic painting, finger painting, frescoes, encaustic, sand
painting, magic markers, doodling, cartooning, caricatures, digital art,
collage, and on and on.  My point is that this forum was not for anyone
interested in art in general, but a specific branch of art.   To briefly
forage into another area can be interesting, and enlightening,  but  it has
gone further than that, and I wondered aloud if we were ever going back to
it, or was this forum morphing  into something else and leaving traditional
woodblock printing in the dust?

Each new member that joins, joins upon a looser foundation than the last,
because the theme has broadened to include more and more.   Our own_
personal_ knowledge should broaden more and more of the arts, but can we
maintain a cohesiveness of this _group_ if the foundation is ever shifting?
 I doubt it.   John's list of students graduating this year and their
limited scope of historical knowledge, knowledge that was vital for some of
us alive through it, distant and remote to those present day graduates,
underlines my point.   Those coming in recently, know only that which they
experience here from that point on and begin to take it for granted that
this is what it's about.    This just has not seemed a passing discussion
to me because of it's growing longevity and dominance.   If in fact it _is_
a passing discussion, I will take a back seat til we round the corner and
start heading home.  I have my delete key and if Ray passes me my drink and
the cartoon section, I'll keep myself entertained til we get there.

Gary

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From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:03:23 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3620] Re: and Baren users et al 

I see that all are weighing in on the focus of the form on the baren or not
just the baren...
Hi Juiio,
 Disagreement is fine. I like the openness too. I believe this is an idea
exchange forum and not just a print exchange. It seems your only link to all
the printmakers is the word "wood". I like the linking word "baren". As for
the technique lets not deligate wood block prints to the traditional like
some dead Latin language. It is alive and changing.  From the get go, if
this is just another printmaking chat- chat, then me too...."TAXI...TAXI"
To David Stones my fellow student of Tokuriiki I just want to second your
thoughts and add: all my printing equipment fits in a shoe box, can be
carried by a three year old and I sometimes print 6ft. X 5ft. images using
all kinds of inks.

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From: "Gregory D. Valentine" <gvalen@linfield.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 3621] My $.02 

  Boy, what a screenful.  I sense the hackles rising, agree with this
statement, take exception with that, and realize it's a vibrant discussion
about something that matters to the people here.
  I have often received instruction in technique. Show me how to do it,
and I'll take it from there.  Sometimes I approached it the other way,
know what you want to do and find a way to do it.  I think truely you
need a balance of both.  Image and technique feed each other.  I'm willing
to sift postings for that one that clicks, that suggests something new,
either technique or resource or....well, there hasn't been much of
anything else.
   We've been ignoring the products of all that technique.  What is
technique for?  How do we advance, perfect our expression?  I'd like some  
discussion of images; widely recognized and available ones, if only not to
raise more hackles. 
                                           --G Valentine

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End of Baren Digest V6 #493
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