[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Wednesday, 21 April 1999      Volume 07 : Number 536

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:36:32 +0900
Subject: [Baren 4111] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

Mary wrote: 
> A better simile is to music - a song without words. We don't always
> expect programmatic motifs or imitative bird song. The subject is more
> often abstract - an mood or pattern in chaos or something. Does that
> make more sense?

This was very interesting to read ... as I was printing this afternoon
(after making my previous post on this topic) I was thinking about this
major difference between visual and aural art. Why am I so unsatisfied
with abstract _visual_ art, yet so willing to accept abstract _aural_
art?  

First up on the CD player this afternoon was Holst's 'Planets' suite -
program music ... music with a story ... music that was written with the
intention of communicating the composer's particular feeling for a
particular 'real' topic.  And this intention was clearly indicated to
the listener, up front.

OK so far so good - that's just like a painting of say, a landscape -
something I can recognize.

But what did I play next?  Dvorak's Serenade for Strings ...   Story? 
None (that I know of).  So what's the 'purpose' of this music?  What's
the composer trying to communicate?  Darned if I know ... it's just
beautiful to listen to - isn't that enough?

So there we are - in music it's enough to have good technique, shaped
into a form that keeps my attention from moment to moment, following the
composer's internal 'master plan' ... and all completely abstract, with
no specific meaning other than the intrinsic beauty of the sound.

But if I copy that same paragraph, changing the word 'composer' into the
word 'artist', and the word 'sound' into the word 'image':

> good technique, shaped into a form that keeps my attention from moment 
> to moment, following the artist's internal 'master plan' ... and all
> completely abstract, with no specific meaning other than the intrinsic 
> beauty of the image ...

So I _should_ be enjoying Michael's prints, right?

I _should_ .... but ...

Dave

P.S.  In case any [Baren] members are still having trouble accessing
Michael's web site, a small selection of three of his prints is now
on the 'Who is Baren?' page.

http://woodblock.com/forum/who.html

(Michael is the silhouette on the bottom row ...)

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From: BHearn2001@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:16:49 EDT
Subject: [Baren 4112] Re:    Baren Digest V7 #525 

<< The Japan Woodworker >>

What is the address of the above?
bhearn

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From: judy mensch <mensch@interport.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:26:01 -0500
Subject: [Baren 4113] Re: Video, finally. 

Jack: I'd love to borrow the "borrow copy" of the video tape.  How are
you going to work it?  Should I just send you my address (and$?) and
then send it on to someone else??  Judy (still sort of new Baren member)

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From: judy mensch <mensch@interport.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:32:53 -0500
Subject: [Baren 4114] Re: surimono #2 

Dave, I'd like to add my congradultions on your prints.  They're just
wonderful.  I'd love to be able to hold one and look at it up close. 
Judy

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From: Ruth Leaf <leafr@ecom.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:34:52 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4115] Re: Baren Digest V7 #535 

I find the discussion of abstract or non objective art versus meaningful
art extremely interesting since I'm someone who does both.  When I was
very young I studied with Stanley William Hayter and his biggest
criticism of my work was that it was too literal.  At the time I
couldn't conceive of working on something that wasn't "real".  As I grew
older I found the freedom of color, shapes, form and design allowed me
an expression I couldn't get literally.  I agree very much with Mary
Kreiger music is abstract and people relate to it .  I think when
artists can make an image that people can respond to each in their own
way it doesn't matter what the artist had in mind .  At this point I'm
very curious about what people think of the three prints of mine baron
has on the members slide show.  Ruth Leaf

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:52:50 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4116] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

If I may.....

Please let me help you here David.

Abstract does not define a particular object or setting for the eye. It
does however allow the 'Minds Eye' to roam and imagine all matter of things
that the viewer has experienced.  It is not the artist that creates the
image so much as it is the viewer that has this privilege.  The beauty in
abstraction is that one never gets tired of looking at the work... Whenever
one looks at the image, and depending on the mood or emotions of the
individual, one can see (minds eye) all sort of wonders.

Most people have this with aural art and the visions that come with music.
Is it lack of art education that has not spanned the gap, when it comes to
abstract art?  I think so.... because appreciation seems to come to more
people after being associated or involved with art for a long period of
time.  It seems to come down to the fact that recognizable imagery  (pretty
picture) soon becomes boring and does not retain an interest.

The following are a part of my  "Artist Statement"
- ----Art melds the eye's image and the mind's interpretation.
- ----Art should stimulate a dialogue. When art is a oneway conversation, one
eventually loses interest.

Good abstract art is not the first thing an artist does.  No...it takes
years of drawing skills, knowledge of composition, understanding of colour
(or value), (if that ever happens) to achieve results.   It makes me
chuckle when students of art stay they are painting abstract as that what
interests them... Looking at their work soon tells, that they do it because
the don't have the the three ingredients ...skill.... knowledge .....
understanding.

>It was late and quite dark, it had recently been raining and the sidewalks
>and streets were glistening with reflections from lights here and there.

The next time you experience this ...squint at the visual image and you
will see abstraction ..... and let your mind roam.

Dave, you wrote.... 
>So I _should_ be enjoying Michael's prints, right?
>I _should_ .... but ...

You will soon be there....  The more you see the more you can visualize.

Hope this helps

Graham

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From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:28:29 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4117] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

i don't believe in the "art created for the viewer" school of thought.  i make my work
because it makes me happy, and feels right.  if it makes other people happy, that's
great.  if they find a totally individual meaning in my work that is not what i
intended, that's great, too.  if they hate my work, if it strikes a negative chord with
them or they associate it with something unpleasant or they think it is
unsophisticated- well, that's not great, but it is equally valid.  i don't like to
assign so many rules to art.  i respect both david and graham's work, for example,
because it is technically excellent and easy to interpret for me.  however, michael's
work speaks to a totally different area of my brain, because the interpretation
boundaries are wide open.  i value all of these styles for different reasons.  well,
that's my incoherent ramble for the day.

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From: "William Kolberg" <wkolberg@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:45:26 -0500
Subject: [Baren 4118] Location, Location, location

To: All

Are there any of us involved in this discussion group that live in 
Texas?  I live in Austin, and I got to wondering if, perhaps, someone 
else is living in the area.

As usual, my curiousity gets the better of me.

William

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From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:04:48 +0000
Subject: [Baren 4119] Re: Video, finally. 

Anyone that would like to be added to the "borrow" list for David's video
should just post a message saying so, and include your shipping address. No
$ necessary. I will try to keep the list sorted out.

Jack Reisland

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:02:05 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4120] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

Someone said....no name on the posting!!!
>i don't believe in the "art created for the viewer" school of thought.

No certainly not.  I did not mean to infer that is what art should be.  You
must create from your experiences, from your inner self. Another part of my
Artists Statement is  .....
Emotions and one's-self should be an integral part of creating a visual
statement.
However the statement an artist makes with abstract is quite likely a
completely different abstract thought for the viewer.

Graham

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From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:12:49 +0000
Subject: [Baren 4122] Re:    Baren Digest V7 #525 

Japan Woodworker can be found online at  http://www.japanwoodworker.com/
, and a print catalog can be ordered from there. Please note that the
online catalog does not list any of the woodblock carving tools that
they carry, so you will have to ask for a "real" catalog.

Jack Reisland

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:44:10 -0400
Subject: [Baren 4123] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

I like the quote from Picasso;
"There is no abstract art. You must always start with something."

Did you ever meet someone who cannot see shapes in clouds, or shapes in
stones?  If you have an imagination , you can discern something in all
complicated or even simple shapes.
Your eye and creativity IMAGINE them, SEE them, FEEL them.
When I am listening to any kind of music, whether it be "THe Pines of Rome",
or a Vivaldi concerto. I see images.
I really do not think there is such a thing as abstract art. It all comes
from the artist's image.

Maybe real abstract art is the kind the decorators hang over the sofas!
They mean nothing but the fact that they match the decor.

My 4 cents.  I like this discussion!!  And Michael, everytime I see your art
work I see something different and I like a mystery!

Jeanne

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:56:31 -0400
Subject: [Baren 4124] Re: Baren Digest V7 #535 

Dear Ruth
Read your post and went right to your Baren site.
First of all I am familiar with your work.
I realize that you do realistic work and abstract. I think you have a meld
of both in your recent Baren work. The first thing I see is the great
composition in the shapes and colors. After that I see the images. The
prints have a wonderful harmony and I would not get tired of looking at them
as they hold many mysteries.
I agree with Graham. Just a pretty picture soon gets boring. I have a bad
habit of painting "pretty pictures", I am trying to get another perspective
in my art.
Some might say that perhaps Monet painted pretty pictures, but looking at
his work, the composition, the color and the feeling that he put into his
Haystacks, Water Lilies etc; is proof that they are not JUST a pretty
picture.
Here I go rambling again. But I like this tack we are on.

Jeanne

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:12:13 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4125] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

Jeanne wrote....
>Maybe real abstract art is the kind the decorators hang over the sofas!
>They mean nothing but the fact that they match the decor.

I love it.......

Graham

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From: Aqua4tis@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:49:35 EDT
Subject: [Baren 4126] Re: Abstraction & meaning 

hello everyone
    i have not said much about this topic  because im struggling with this 
issue as dave is     i want to understand  and am doing alot of reading and 
studying on this subject    i too like michaels prints very much    but like 
dave  i look for meaning in everything   and sometimes i get lost    
   anyway  the reason i decided to write was just to say that i  find this 
conversation interesting and very stimulating and and im enjoying hearing 
everyones views   this was exactly the kind of dialogue ive been hoping to 
find online   
     thank you all 
                 georga

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From: Barbara Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:11:51 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4127] Re: Baren Digest V7 #535 

As artists we see and appreciate a vast amount of different work and we
respond to it all. That doesn't mean we want to put it over out couch, it
means we can relate to it because we have been educated and exposed. To
dramatize this, I took my neighbor to an auction here in Portland to benifit
the Cascade Aids Project. She has five children between the ages of 19 and
30. She works in a retirement home as a receptionist. She walked through the
auction and as we went from piece to piece I could see she was having a hard
time relating to any work that was not strongly objective. We talked about
it and she could find no redeaming qualities to 90% of the work. She is
fairly open minded, so it was not that she didn't want to like it, she just
didn't have any frame of reference for it. When I got home that night I told
my husband that 75% of the population is probably like my neighbor, they
want to like it, but they don't know how. It is a wonder we are able to sell
as much work as we do. Education is the key, the more you know, the more you
appreciate  (I didn't say like, I said appreciate) so as artists I think one
of our main jobs is to educate the public. I belong to a cooperative gallery
in the heart of the art district in Portland so I have a fair amount of
contact with the piblic and consider is a priviledge to be able to talk
about artists and art with everyone who comes in....the more people
understand what we are doing the more they buy our work and the less afraid
they are to trust their own feelings and respones to the work.

To Ruth:  I have always liked your work and have of course read your book. I
couldn't get my computer to go through the slide show, it kept stopping
after the third or fourth print. I have only used a computer for about a
year so have lots to learn. I think this is a great discussion and one of
the best things about this group.
Barbara

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From: Barbara Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:35:51 -0700
Subject: [Baren 4128] Re: Portland 

Hi April and John,
I do know Elaine and her husband, I have been on commitees with them in the
past, raising money for the NW Print Council and the Portland Art Museum Gilkey
Center. I haven't seen her in a while so after I take Graham's class I am sure
I will be doing a few woodcuts so will get to see her again. I really liked
your work, your colors are amazing. I too love color and am really drawn to
colors first and image second, but both really go together. Color won't rescue
a bad composition, no matter how wonderful the color is.

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From: mkrieger@mb.sympatico.ca
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:25:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 4129] prettiness fades, beauty lasts 

Here is something else to chew on -

A work of art has certain qualities that are separate from 'a good
likeness'. The composition of the picture - the way that colour, value
and line are arranged within the image is an example. The bird in Dave's
exchange print holds my attention not only because it is an excellent
portrayal but because it holds a pivotal place in the composition. 

I think it is the strength or weaknesses in these qualities that create
the difference between just a pretty picture and an artwork that holds
one's attention over the long haul. It is as possible for an abstract
work to lose our interest as it is for a representational piece. 

Mary Krieger
Winnipeg MB

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End of Baren Digest V7 #536
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