[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Tuesday, 14 September 1999     Volume 08 : Number 704

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@nacs.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:22:41 -0400
Subject: [Baren 5795] Re: Baren Digest V8 #703 

Bea's description of the use of the Toh was helpful to me.
Thanks for the very careful descriptions of April's 
workshop, Bea.  

Gayle

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:26:20 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5796] Re: Baren Digest V8 #703 

>Printing with cars? Can't we just lay it in the driveway
> and run over it? 

Regarding this type of thing, a friend of mine recently told me about a guy 
(I think he's from Germany??) who prints using his very own steamroller!  I 
love that!  He's printing on very large paper, as you can imagine.

Sarah

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:05:01 +0900
Subject: [Baren 5797] Re: running out of gas ... 

Greg wrote:
> ... get out the ol' agenda and start penciling things in. 

Interesting to read your thoughts on this Greg. It was something I paid
quite a bit of attention to back when I was working in the music store. 
I couldn't escape the question "What would you do if you found out you
only had X days to live?"

I couldn't answer it of course, but I did know that spending those
remaining days sitting behind a desk in the store _wasn't_ it. This was
one of the major factors in my 'taking the plunge' (as Maria calls it),
and coming over here to do woodblock.  The days were passing by, one
after another, ever more quickly ... and listening to Alan Parsons
didn't help either:

"Think of a boy with the stars in his eyes,
Longing to reach them but frightened to try.
Sadly, you'd say "Someday ... someday ..."
But day after day, the show must go on, and time slipped away.
Before you could build any Castles in Spain ...
... the chance had gone by."

So how would I answer the question now?  Well I still don't really know
for sure, but I think that I'm gradually getting closer to the ideal way
to answer it - "Just keep on doin' what I'm doin' ..."

Dave

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:39:13 -0500
Subject: [Baren 5799] re: pressing adventures & more 

Thanks to all that had input regarding my latest dilusion; that being bulding a
home-grown press. Some very funny stuff there from Gary and the gang ! So how
did it go this weekend on my mad adventure ? Do I have a prototype ready to go ?
Should I start taking orders from Bareners for my $55 press ?
Well.........not quite yet !

Several ideas spilled from my head. Three options here. First and probably
easiest was to build an old fashioned book platen press; you know the type where
two huge heavy platens come together via a big screw & hand pressure.  Second to
build an inexpensive proofing press (Vandercook ?) the kind you place your
block, paper on the base surface and one single roller is hand pulled across the
whole thing. Three and most expensive is to build an etching press adaptable to
woodblocks like the one in Mr. Bannister's plans that works on the principles of
two rollers putting friction on a movable bed.

I work near an industrial zone, with many factories and all kinds of
businesses......so on the way home Friday I did some scavenging...........I
guess you can call it garbage-hunting!  No printing presses to be found, but
seriously, one place had out on the curb two industrial type presses...you know
the type used to create (punch ?)  metal parts, etc.  These things were huge,
one about 7' tall and the other about 10' tall. Thoughts came to me about how to
convert this huge powerful machine into a printing press..... I guess I would
have to keep it in the garage......how would I get it home....how would I keep
it from crushing my woodblocks.....time to move on !
Next stop I found myself picking up a very nice upholstered office chair, a
fancy one at that!  Here is the deal, if you look at the mechanism used at the
base of most office chairs, you will find a big screw attached to the chair via
a big metal frame. By spinning the chair around you change the height to your
taste. I played quite a bit with this idea over the weekend.
I basically have a giant  screw about 15 inches long securely attached to a
metal frame to which I can bolt a large wood or metal platen to enlarge the
force area.  The trick now is to build a base that will allow the platen up &
down via rotating the screw.....Since friday I have taken apart all three of my
office chairs at home to play around with, to the point that I had nowhere to
sit  while brainstorming & experimenting with the damm thing...

Time for lunch.......more on press options 2 & 3 to come........ be back later !

Julio

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From: Wanda Robertson <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:06:16 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5801] Re: pressing adventures & more 

Heeheehee! Julio, go buy a baren! Lightweight, doesn't need gas, won't
crush your blocks, no mechanics to go wrong. How can you improve on
that?

Wanda

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From: John Ryrie <j.ryrie@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 04:05:10 +1000
Subject: [Baren 5803] Re: wet paper 

>There's a little paper mill that has been in production, in Italy,Magnani by
>name, sense the mid-1400's,....they turn out a sheet called Incisioni/Pescia

Magnani has become one of my first choices for most printing jobs,  There book
papers are very good.  They also make some hand-made papers that are quit
expensive but I think some of the best papers around.  Have you tired them?

Welcome Daryl

John Ryrie

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From: Arye Saar <saar1@degania-b.org.il>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:18:10 +0200
Subject: [Baren 5804] Re: pressing adventures & more 

Let me convince you: Platen Press hydraulic driven!
The cheapest. Most easily constructed.
Cut the channel iron. Weld.
Cut the plywood board and trim to size. Glue.
Assemble the press (Even before the wood glue dries).
Hand 'Pump and press.
Let it dry.
Finito.
Maximum 3 days.
Don't be afraid of crushing the blocks: Spread pieces of board
the same thickness around the original block. Press.
Never crushed anything.

Arye.

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:42:55 -0500
Subject: [Baren 5806] Re: pressing adventures & more 

Hi Arye, thanks for your support on my pressing issues. You seem to be about the
only one.....  I did not know we had so many comedians here at Baren. who would
ever think of printing woodblocks with a car ?

 Now; I do have an old  piano (1903 !) in my garage....if I can just place my
block and paper in a certain way, then ink the hammers on the piano.........I
guess I can have one of those...."performance art"  prints ????? I can play
different tunes and thus somewhat merge the vibrations created by the hammers as
they hit the metal strings unto my fine hosho paper...........
just be careful with that staccatto...don't wont to punch a whole thru the
paper.....encore anyone ?


But seriously...Arye......
the hydraulic press you built, is it just like the one in Mr. Bannister's book ?
or did you make alterations ?
Is there a photo available ? I do have a small hydraulic car jack in the
garage........

Regarding Gill's backwards EG...I guess one can screw up one plate and carve the
lettering backwards by accident....but not 25 plates ! Surely it was
intentional......

ps. By the way....Wanda.... I own three barens and have no plans to put them
away. I wore one down for exchange #1, and another during exchange #2.....they
are both waiting for recovery....I mean new covers.....the press thing is just
that...I want to build one....probably won't use it much.....unless some of you
funny baren people drop by and I turn it into a torture machine.......come here
little fingers.......crunch...crunch....crack......crunch....crack!  Let's see
you use a baren after that !

Part two of my pressing adventures will have to wait till a bit later........now
where did I put that darn ball bearing.....is that a 1/4" shaft you have there ?
Is that motor CW or CCW ?

Julio        {:-()

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From: ewa <ewa@gis.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:28:58 -0400
Subject: [Baren 5807] Re: Baren Digest V8 #701 

 John Ryrie wrotr:
> I think that there should be a section in the Baren Encyclopediadevoted
> to printing with cars. 

Tradesmen that put down hardtop driveways have heavy gas roller vehicles  similar
to old steam rollers which should give nice even pressure and lots of it. Might be
a solution if you can find an obliging one :)

edo

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:18:26 -0500
Subject: [Baren 5808] Re: the best paper in the world....... 

I just wanted to comment here......this talk about hosho papers, rice paste,
barens covered with bamboo sheaths, shark skins to sharpen your
brushes.....cherry blocks,   etc..........about the only way to
go........hogwash!

Let's face it ! That's all they had back then in the 1700-1800's....there was no
plywood, there was no mechanization, yoyimo-san the publisher did not have a
mechanical press he could put to use to make thousands of prints a
day......there was no McClain's  to order from....you had to go out and make
your own stuff from the natural resources in the local area. By today standards
the truth of the matter is that the methods were most primitive...and technique
and tools used were dictated by the current development of the country....as
soon as the industrial era arrived in Japan it all started to change.
 The pigments used contained dangerous chemicals and in the organic colors they
quickly faded.....(Yes I know we all love that soft soft faded look in japanese
prints.....but it was not intentional). All the paper making families converted
to machines to pulp & wash the plant fibers....and the ones that say they still
do it the old-fashioned way (hand-beating & hand-washing & picking off the black
blemishes on the pulp)....are probably saying so just for show everytime the
newspaper people come by.....if someone tells you enough times that the water in
a certain river makes for their better paper.....after a while you believe
it.....because you love the paper and you get good results...( speaking of H2O,
how many brands of mineral water are in the market now a days ? Each advertising
to be better than the next......Where were all these wonderful miracle waters 20
years ago ?  )......but the truth is that the river water is not the same river
water of 25, 50 or 100 years ago, and even in remote towns....trends in global
air pollution, industrialization and soil erosion would have changed the local
environment for both the water & earth resources...specially in a small
over-crowded & industrialized country...... in many towns the plant fibers are
imported from outside japan because the local farmers don't grow mulberry and
other bush crops in enough quantities to satisfy the fiber needs of the paper
makers. I like to have someone run a spectroscopic analysis on some of our
priceless japanese papers.....I bet you find some BLEACH in there....among other
chemicals....

As someone (I think maybe Maria A.) once said here in Baren  a while back,
bamboo is a native plant to japan, if the printmaking revolution had taken place
in Mexico instead of Japan, we would all be wrapping our barens in tortilla
shells today....

Now  don't get me wrong, I love this printmaking with woodblocks, water colors
and using a baren...........and I certainly understand the market that some
bareners are trying to attract with their work and the need to work within
certain standards in order to meet the demands of the buyer & the
collectors.........
I also admire Dave's attitude toward doing the old-fashioned way.....and there
is no denying the excellent results achieved and the fine quality of the
prints........but I think Mr. Hokusai & Mr. Hiroshige would have a great big
laugh if they knew of some of our discussions here.....( comparing tooth size on
a shark skin ????  recipes for cooking starch paste ????)  they would probably
just go to the nearest pro-tool store and get themselves a top notch sanding
machine and a big old can of methyl cellulose.......Maybe....maybe not!

 I remember a conversation I had with my uncle ( who was a professional athlete
in the 30's & 40's) a few years back and I asked him if he thought it was silly
for baseball players to wear batting gloves & helmets and for football players
to wear all the protective gear they wear today.........and to my surprise he
said he sure wished he had all that stuff available back then...

Ok, by now you are all wishing I would just stick to my press-making
adventures.......right ? Just remember I got that torture-press ready to go if
you get nasty with me.............

Julio

ps.....I'll beat Dave to the punch, many of your replys are coming in  including
many previous postings, please cut & paste the essentials only.......open a new
email instead of doing a "reply with  history". Thanks.

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From: Maria Arango <Maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:58:47 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5809] very big print 

Happened to be browsing at work and, lo and behold! came upon the very
large print that I described in the last post. The artist is Willie Cole
and the print called "Stowage", 1997. Check it out:
http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/cole/stowage.html
Also an update, the Buncho print and all of the close ups are now in my
site under Invited Artist's Gallery, courtesy of the endless generosity
of our host David Bull. May the Gods of printmaking keep your Tos (not
your toes) sharp and your Barens (not your--) tightly covered.
Health to all,

Maria

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:59:29 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5810] Re: the best paper in the world....... 

Julio.....
Your scatter gun approach suggest you should.....

Stick to making your presses.

OR

Learn more about the UNDERSTANDING of Hanga printmaking.

(<:

Graham

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From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:50:45 +0000
Subject: [Baren 5811] Re: the best paper in the world....... 

Wow, what brought this on? I'm not sure how to respond, but even with my limited
knowledge of Hanga, I know that;

> Let's face it ! That's all they had back then in the 1700-1800's....there was no
> plywood,

...plywood is no substitute for Japanese cherry, especially when carving small
details and thin lines.

> there was no mechanization, yoyimo-san the publisher did not have a
> mechanical press he could put to use to make thousands of prints a
> day......

...a mechanical press cannot come close to replicating all the variation in color
textures and gradations possible with a baren

>  The pigments used contained dangerous chemicals and in the organic colors they
> quickly faded.....(Yes I know we all love that soft soft faded look in japanese
> prints.....but it was not intentional).

...there is evidence that printers were well aware of the characteristics of the
pigments that they used, and used some colors realizing that they would fade and
change in certain ways, particularly in the printing of surimono

> All the paper making families converted
> to machines to pulp & wash the plant fibers....

...machine processed pulp paper in no way compares to hand processed paper, the
shortened fibers caused by machine processing greatly reduces the strength and
durability of the paper, as well as other working properties of the paper. It is no
accident that conservators of all kinds of art works use hand made Japanese papers
almost exclusively in their work.

> and the ones that say they still
> do it the old-fashioned way (hand-beating & hand-washing & picking off the black
> blemishes on the pulp)....are probably saying so just for show everytime the
> newspaper people come by.....

...how  do I respond to this, the reputations of whole families of paper makers are
being questioned here, as well as the intelligence of large numbers of eye
witnesses, Dave?

> if someone tells you enough times that the water in
> a certain river makes for their better paper.....after a while you believe
> it.....because you love the paper and you get good results...

...again, from my field in art conservation, there is a great deal of difference in
different water sources. Water is NOT just H2O, but can contain a wide variety of
minerals, metals, organisms, and these additions can cause a great deal of
difference to the various processes in which the water is used. It is also possible
for the more basic composition of the H2O to vary, with extra oxygen molecules
present, or extra electrons may be present, creating ionized water, both of which
can greatly affect the processes in which the water is used.


> water of 25, 50 or 100 years ago, and even in remote towns....trends in global
> air pollution, industrialization and soil erosion would have changed the local
> environment for both the water & earth resources...

...this may be try for river water, but for mountain stream water, that is directly
produced from nearby snow melt, such as is used in many Japanese papermaking
villages, these factors would not have nearly the same effect.

> in many towns the plant fibers are
> imported from outside japan because the local farmers don't grow mulberry and
> other bush crops in enough quantities to satisfy the fiber needs of the paper
> makers.

...that is true, and papers that are produced with imported fibers are not
generally as highly regarded as those produced with Japanese fibers, which are
generally grown by the paper makers, not farmers.

> I like to have someone run a spectroscopic analysis on some of our
> priceless japanese papers.....I bet you find some BLEACH in there....among other
> chemicals....

...some Japanese papers are indeed chemically bleached, others are still sun
bleached, and the use of bleaches is no secret, so one can choose...

> As someone (I think maybe Maria A.) once said here in Baren  a while back,
> bamboo is a native plant to japan, if the printmaking revolution had taken place
> in Mexico instead of Japan, we would all be wrapping our barens in tortilla
> shells today....

...although there may be a modern substitute for Madake bamboo takenokawa, it has
not been found yet, and people have certainly been looking.

> ...but I think Mr. Hokusai & Mr. Hiroshige would have a great big
> laugh if they knew of some of our discussions here.....( comparing tooth size on
> a shark skin ????  recipes for cooking starch paste ????)  they would probably
> just go to the nearest pro-tool store and get themselves a top notch sanding
> machine

...a sanding machine, no matter how big, will no properly prepare a brush to be
able leave an even layer of pigment with no brush strokes. There are modern
substitutes for shark skin, but only nature can make a sheet of finely shaped and
sharpened tiny teeth, the only thing that will actually split  individual hairs.

It may help to understand that the development of printing in Japan, and the
development of the particular Japanese printing tools evolved hand in hand.  The
idea that it is just a case of "making do" with a few natural materials that were
close at hand is to greatly diminish both the resources and creativity of the
Japanese artisans that developed these tools and materials. I have often wondered
at the process that must have been involved to discover and bring together all of
the different materials and techniques, most of which are native to Japan, to
develop the art of Japanese printing. Other countries have developed there own
printing technologies, with their own very different tools, which have resulted in
quite different printing traditions. Although we may now mix some technologies, and
even argue about which technologies are easier, it does not make sense to dismiss
an entire tradition, no more than it would make sense to suggest, for example, that
western oil based letterpress printing should be done with Japanese tools. I would
suggest that you try some of the traditional Japanese tools and materials, and some
of the substitutes, for a few years, then re-evaluate your ideas.

Jack

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End of Baren Digest V8 #704
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