[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Tuesday, 14 September 1999     Volume 08 : Number 706

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From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown)
Date: 14 Sep 99 09:20:00 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5828] NYC shows 

(This note to let anyone in the NYC area who is curious know that I will be
coming down over the next two weekends, set up with my booth 'doing my thing':
hawking color woodblock prints while i sit and carve at my little desk.)

Specs are:

September 18, 19 :  NYC  Autumn Craftsmanship Festival at the Lincoln Center 
(Broadway & W. 64th) sponsored by the American Concern for Arts and Crafts. 
	free admission, 11 - 7 both days,
	I'll be at Booth # 44.

September 25: " It's About Excellence"  Craft Fair, 11- 6 pm, in Greenwich
Village; I'll be set up on the corner of Charles St. & Bleeker St.

.--- a few days ago Dave wrote:
>What would you do if you found out you
>only had X days to live?"

Some years ago I took perhaps a similar plunge, thinking i could support myself
and family making and selling these little woodblock prints. But in a way
aren't we 'plunging' every day, like it or not? . It would be great to meet any
Bareners in the NYC area willing to 'plunge' into the City on a late September
weekend.

Matt

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From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Baren 5829] Re: Baren Digest V8 #703 

I'm cross-eyed catching up with all my baren mail!!!!

Thank you Greg for reminding us about keeping those important appointments!
And good luck Julio with your 'pressing engagements' and welcome to the new
Spanish and Portugese contingent. And congrats to the lucky print winners.

Barbara, Stonehenge is probably preferable to BFK because it is
smoother...don't need to run it through a press, as Graham is recommending
for BFK! And it does technically have a front and back, but it's
practically indistinguishable, so it doesn't make much difference. I think
Greg could save some grief printing proofs on Stonehenge before trying the
'good stuff' which is so expensive!

Had a great visit with Jean Eger at her home in Richmond, CA, when I
visited the west coast last week. Thank you so much for inviting your
printmaking friends, Jean. It was a pleasure to share prints. An evening to
remember. Hope the upcoming Baren Exchange Show that Judy Mensch is
organizing here in New York will allow some more of us to share our
portfolios when we meet.

And Bea, thanks so much for posting your notes from the Horizons class, I
can add a snapshot of the whole class as soon as I have a spare minute!
It's taken me hours to get through my mail, phone messages, and especially
all my Baren postings!

April Vollmer

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:32:55 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5830] papers, etc 

I agree that one should try many different papers to see what accomplishes 
the effect you want.  I do have to say though that for hanga, after trying 
MANY different papers, I'd be hard pressed (I know, bad joke) to find 
anything that works as well as Japanese kozo paper (which in itself comes in 
many varieties), as it is strong enough to withstand multiple printings of 
wet on wet, and yet has such a beautiful translucency to it.  as people say 
in computer speak, ymmv, and I'm certainly open to trying other papers, this 
is just what I've found out so far.

Sarah

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From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown)
Date: 14 Sep 99 09:45:14 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5831] Papers, etc 

For the record:
	I print the majority of my hanga prints on Rives Hvywt and Ltwt,: don't
pass these papers by when you are experimenting. Keiji Shinohara in a workshop
in Mass. this summer had his students printing on Rives Ltwt. I have prints
done on both Rives and the kozo-fibered paper Dave uses made by Mr. Iwano (and 
by Mr. Yamaguchi). Out in the 'marketplace' (this is the U.S. of course) people
usually pick prints on the Rives when placed side by side! 

Matt

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From: Arye Saar <saar1@degania-b.org.il>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:41:15 +0200
Subject: [Baren 5832] Press - car related  

Julio wrote:
>But seriously...Arye......
>the hydraulic press you built, is it just like the one in Mr.
>Bannister's book ?

Julio -
Without grave, weighty and serious mood -

No need for a photo - it's the same press as in the book.
The alteration i made are:
Inside the upper iron channel i welded a piece of iron rail, the length
of the iron channel.
Onto the two platens' 'face' i glued hardboard plate to fit.
And someday may be i will do: Attach a pressure gauge to the car jack.

One thing more: Printing woodcut blocks differ from place to place.
Had the chance of working in different parts of the world - in every
place you have different weather conditions and the paper, ink and
chemicals behave in different way.
And here, 200 m below sea level, on the deserts' brim, conditions are...

(Mind you: i work with oil paints.)

Arye

Man who run in front of car get tired.

Man who run behind car get exhausted.

Chinese proverbs.

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From: Barbara Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:21:26 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5834] Re: Papers, etc 

Matt,
Thanks for the input on rives ligihtweight...I have been using it for years but not
for Hanga, I think we had it too wet at Graham's class. I soak it and dry it on
bath towels for regular printing (this saves on blotters and you can wash them
often) and have found it ia amazingly strong for such light paper. I use it a lot
when working with kids in the schools. I will try it again for Hanga.
Barbara

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From: Wanda Robertson <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:34:49 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5835] Re: Papers, etc 

Yes, too much wetness may have been the problem with the Rives Ltwt. As
I recall, it sort of crumbled into little blobs. Probably my fault, I
had never worked with wet or damp paper before. I am now (finally)
getting the knack of telling when it is just about the right dampness to
take the pigment. I'll try it again - I still have a couple of pieces of
it that came home with me from Graham's.

I sure hope Floyd decides to head on out to sea & leaves the East Coast
alone!

Wanda

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From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:18:48 +0900
Subject: [Baren 5838] 

Magnolia Press in Oakland occasionally gives classes in papermaking.  They
have all the good equipment, including a Hollander beater and a vacuum
table.  They also teach how to do it the old way, by pounding on the fibers
with two wooden sticks.  (It takes longer).  It is a great experience to
take the class, if you ever get a chance.

Jean Eger

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:47:16 -0500
Subject: [Baren 5839] re: stimulating 

Dear Graham regarding your posting :
>Julio is just stimulating dialogue....

Of course.........I'll reply later to you and Jack about you comments.......

Thanks...Julio

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From: Marco Flavio Marinucci <marco@athomefaraway.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:04:03 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5841] Re: Baren Digest V8 #705 

Hello Graham, 
how's everything. I am looking to buy those
small sharpening stones set or the inside  of the knives,
to give them the last inside touch? Where could I buy them
from? I remember you had a catalog (and maybe a number?)
Also, at the airport, coming back from the workshop, they
took away my varnish for the wood. What was its name and
kind? I may not be able to get the same in the US but I'll
try. What is it so I can buy a similar product? Thank you
much, Marco Flavio

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From: judy mensch <mensch@interport.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:03:19 -0400
Subject: [Baren 5842] Re: NYC shows 

Matt, Sept. 25th - Manhattan Graphics Center will also have a table
showing/selling prints at the Crafts Fair.  I'll be there between 12:30
and 2:30.  Maybe you can stop by or when I can leave the table, I'll try
to find you.  

If anyone is interested in receiving a postcard for the Baren Exhibition
at MGC (besides the people in the show) please let me know by sending me
your address. The people in the show will be sent, I hope, about 10
cards each for their own use.   Judy

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:59:48 -0400
Subject: [Baren 5843] Re; paper 

Interesting posts on various papers that are used

Just a plug for the Rives lightweight.
 I have been using it for over 20 years and have never found the paper
wanting. I have used it more for drawings on which I have embossed.
 I do soak the paper for about 30 minutes and then put it between towels to
dry out a little .
Then I emboss the drawing and it does a beautiful embossing. The sheetII
have used have been as large as 30"x40". If done correctly there is no
buckling at all. Now I use it for my woodblocks and it still outperforms any
other paper so far.
Kitataka is also a good performer if I want a delicate print or decide not
to emboss the drawing or print.

Cross your fingers that the hurricane Floyd does not do a lot of damage. We
are getting rained on as I speak and the wind is ablowin'.

Jeanne N
(they still get us mixed up, Jean)

PS; I do oil based prints, and of course only wet the paper for drawings
that I want to emboss. For unembossed woodcuts I do not soak the paper.

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:26:47 -0500
Subject: [Baren 5845] re: Julio's long reply.... 

Dear Graham, Jack & others:
You must read my opening statement again:

"I just wanted to comment here......this talk about hosho papers, rice paste,
barens covered with bamboo sheaths, shark skins to sharpen your
brushes.....cherry blocks,   etc..........ABOUT THE ONLY WAY TO GO
........hogwash! "

This forum is for all type of woodblock printing not just about printing in the
japanese style, nor only for people using hosho paper. There are alternatives.
Some of us can't afford $18 for a sheet of paper; I can't.  The japanese
artist's of this century parted with all the old techniques, tools & materials
and gave printmaking a new & fresh look. They used plywood, cardboard, power
tools and european & second-hand papers in a mixture of techniques never seen
before. Their work is as exciting and fresh to our generation as their
forefathers was to theirs. Is their work not Art ?  Is their message diluted by
their use of alternative tools and materials ?

That's all I wanted to express. The tools, materials  and techniques are just a
way to convey the message. A bad print on prime hosho is still a bad print. An a
Picasso or a Miro is still a work of art even if printed on a paper napkin.

- ----------------

Dear Jack:
You are killing me here! Have you and Graham considered going into pro-wrestling? 
You two would make a hell of a tandem.

I know I am not an eloquent writer, but you  have taken my whole posting, broken
it into smaller sentences, taken them out of context  and responded with words
that I find hard to disagree with. I read my part and is factual,  I read your
reply and it is also factual. I agree with all your comments but that does not
make my statements false. You write at the end:

>I would suggest that you try some of the traditional Japanese tools and
>materials, and some of the substitutes, for a few years, then re-evaluate your
>ideas."

I have used them! I love them! Like I said in an earlier posting, even if I
succeed in putting a printing press together, I would not put my baren away.

 What ideas are you talking about ? That there are alternatives to using hosho &
a baren ? Hundreds of printmakers use other materials & tools everyday of their
lifes!

I have no need to re-evaluate what I already know to be true. I know there are
no substitutes equal to a well built pro-baren, for a finely crafted steel of a
To knive, or for a stack of hand-made sun-dried virgin hosho. That does not mean
that there are no alternatives that can still convey the artist's mesage
(without leading to bankruptcy!). That's my point !

ps. I do disagree with you about pollution's effect on stream water......have
you heard of acid rain ? ....clouds travel over large areas of industrialized
terrain, pick up chemicals, rain falls on mountain, snow melts, runs down
stream, fibers are washed, paper is made...chemicals in your print ? do you
check the ph in your paper from batch to batch?


Dear Graham: Your replies to my posting  are quite condescending and you are
making assumptions about my schooling.  Have I touched a nerve here ? I am sorry
if I have.  I don't recall being impolite or attacking any baren members in my
posting. You on the other hand are getting quite personal, I don't mind, we go
back a while, this is not the first time we bump. The points I made are factual.
You can romanticize hanga, tools & materials  all you want, but to the majority
of  people making prints and making paper 100-200 years ago it was just a job.
Hanga was not collected until around the turn of the century, and not seriously
until after WWII.  To the japanese people woodblocks prints have never had much
of an artistic value, until westerners showed interest.

 Although I am not an authority on the subject I actually know quite a bit about
japanese hanga (probably a lot more that the average person and the average
printmaker),  it's history, about japanese culture, paper-making and the lives
of the artists & craftmans of the ukiyo-e & post-ukiyoe  periods. I have read
(not browsed over) several dozens of  books by authorities on the subject,
watched documentaries on japanese paper-making, and seen hundreds of photos of
the actual paper-makers in action during the first half of this century. While
my knowledge of the subject might never translate to the same high degree of
artistic execution you & others have obtained, nevertheless I beg to differ with
your assumptions that I am not a "believer in the tradition of Hanga". If I did
not believe or did not enjoy, I would have left Baren long ago.

Each new generation assimilates what has been passed down and adds it's own
fingerprint for future generations to use.
Such is true also with Printmaking.

There are no more master cherry-block makers in Japan, just like there is
perhaps only a handful of people making paper by hand (on a limited part-time
basis) and just as few full-time printers.  Certain jobs are just too labor
intensive, hard on the body and do not pay the rent. To those people it has
always been a job, a way to make a living passed down from previous generations
and not an art form like we would like to believe.  If they achieved such
perfection in their products it is due to their pride and the demands of local
competition for a selective small market.

CUT ! PRINT! EMAIL!

Julio

ps. The press project is alive and well! Thanks  Arye for your input.

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End of Baren Digest V8 #706
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