[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Sunday, 7 November 1999      Volume 09 : Number 771

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:44:20 -0500
Subject: [Baren 6504] Re: gold leaf

Barbara
have you ever used the "artificial gold leaf". It is very inexpensive and
lookls like the real stuff. I used it on a drawing several years ago and it
still is bright and shiny. I would like to know if anyone has used it and
how successful or unsuccessful it is in holding up to the elements. Thanks
for the tips on using the gold leaf. I want to use it in a drawing that I am
doing but would like it to last awhile.

Jeanne

Will be mailing my Exchange print on Monday. As soon as I uncover a box to
fit it in.

------------------------------

From: B Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 07:57:45 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6505] more gold leaf 

Jeanne,
I am sure what I have used is artificail, it costs about $10 for a book
of leaves and think real gold would be at least twice that. It has only
discolored once in 6 years on one small print in one small place.
Barbara

------------------------------

From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:41:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baren 6507] Dow's Pine Planks 

James: I just bet that red paper will not hold up long. One of the things I
discovered at the Monothon is that Rostow-Jung's Akua color is not only
made from lightfast pigments, but it rolls up really well. It would be a
cinch to roll up the color you want on a plexi plate larger than your
paper, and print the color of your choice on white paper. You could print
over it in oil or water.

But what I really wanted to say to everyone is that I just had the pleasure
of viewing the Arthur Wesley Dow show at Hirschel and Adler here in NY. The
work is craftsman style...related to the English guys (Wm Morris, etc), and
the Roycrofters here. Beautiful soft color choices. The work is small and
tasteful, views of landscapes and towns along the Ipswich river. Many
examples of his blocks were included in the show. What I liked about it was
that it was an American version of hanga. It was a perfect example of how
an individual artist can adapt the Japanese technique for his own use. He
didn't try to do anything as complex or finely detailed as Hokusai & co. He
used plain pine planks, with rather crude kentos. Most prints are small,
like 4" x 6" so the printing is not difficult, and they are not editioned.
It seems he liked to use the form to experiment with different color
combinations.

I was a little shocked to see the prices they were getting, like $40,000
for a 4 x 6! Bet Arthur didn't get anything like that when he was alive.

Tomorrow I'm off to the Print Fair with Judy Mensch, I'll let you know how
much hanga we find there.

April Vollmer

------------------------------

From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:11:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 6508] Re: more gold leaf

Barbara

i thought that you were rich and was using REAL gold leaf.Now that I am
among the mere mortals again, thanks still for the tips on applying the
leaf. I will try your method. Do you lift your leaf up with a piece of
plexi?  That way it is easier to control. I use plain old gel and it sticks
forever. Tamp it down with cotton, very carefully. Yes, mine has been
through the test of time and has not dulled. I wonder what the real gold
leaf would look like if put side by side with the one from the $10 book.
Which is about what mine cost .

Jeanne N.

------------------------------

From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 04:13:06 +0900
Subject: [Baren 6509]

Philip,
When you talk about 4/4 cherry, what do you mean?  Four inches by four
inches?  Four feet by four feet?  Sorry for my abysmal ignorance about this.
Jean in CA

------------------------------

From: "Philip Smith" <smithart@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:24:06 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6511] 

Jean,...4/4 is four quarters,.....3/4 is three quarters,...it's the way
those lumber guys say un-surfaced wood,...'still rough,....when a 4/4 gets
finished it's a piece of 3/4,.... They call it one inch then.......?????????
Strange huh? Maybe that's why their prices are so high.

Barbara, thanks for the invite,..I will try and make it. I 'spose same time
and place,.... ?                   Philip

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 11:38:44 -1000
Subject: [Baren 6512] Re: new member 

> The traditional stuff to stick gold leaf onto oil based prints is egg white.

Beaten egg white, (called glair) has indeed been used for centuries for gilding
on parchment and paper, but it was always applied by brush. I doubt if you could
print it with a block.

Jack

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 11:48:49 -1000
Subject: [Baren 6513] Re: Dow's Pine Planks 

> James: I just bet that red paper will not hold up long. One of the things I
> discovered at the Monothon is that Rostow-Jung's Akua color is not only
> made from lightfast pigments, but it rolls up really well. It would be a
> cinch to roll up the color you want on a plexi plate larger than your
> paper, and print the color of your choice on white paper. You could print
> over it in oil or water.

Remember, if you are planning to print water base, the color that you print
for the initial paper color will tint all of the other transparent colors that
you print over it. In hanga tradition, a colored background requires a
separate block, carved to cover only those parts of the paper where design
will not be printed, and usually printed several times if a deep, rich color
is desired.

Jack

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 12:01:01 -1000
Subject: [Baren 6514] Re: gold leaf 

> have you ever used the "artificial gold leaf". It is very inexpensive and
> lookls like the real stuff.

Real gold does look different than artificial gold leaf, especially if it is
lightly burnished. The metals used in artificial leaf are too hard to burnish.
Whether the artificial leaf tarnishes or not is a factor of the paper it is
applied to, and its storage or use. Acid free paper helps a lot, and if it is
framed or stored in an acid free environment helps too. You can, in theory,
clear coat the leaf too, and stop it from tarnishing for quite a while, but no
matter what you do, and how it is stored, sooner or later it -will- tarnish. It
just depends on how far into the future you are concerned about your art. Many
Japanese printers used powdered pigments that they certainly knew would
tarnish, but then, they were perhaps not expecting them to be still around and
collected after all these years.

Jack

------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:35:54 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6515] 

>Jean,...4/4 is four quarters,.....

If I may..

In the wholesale lumber business all wood his expressed in quarters.
As Philip said.....4/4 means it it is rough cut (not planed). Put a tape
measure to it, it would be 1" thick.  When they thickness plane it (two
sides) it then is 3/4" thick....a standard in the retail lumber business.
When I order basswood, I order it 5/4 so that when thickness planed I get
1" thick boards.

OKy dOKy?

Graham

------------------------------

From: James G Mundie <jimandkatemundie@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:25:19 -0500
Subject: [Baren 6516] the next exchange 

Dave,
Here's my ha'penny's worth about Exchange #5.  Those ideas about the
division of labor were interesting, but I cannot imagine how that would
all play out in practical terms.  Truth be told, I would probably not
participate in an exchange like that.  

However, I have an idea that I think might make an interesting portfolio:
 what if all thirty participants took their inspiration from the same
image?  For example, Dave might choose such-and-such a print by Kuniyoshi
or somebody -- something with a lot of visual information going on -- and
each participant would make an interpretation of that image in their own
manner.  Perhaps one person would want to focus on a particular deatil
and make that into a print; someone else might apply the same composition
to another subject; yet another might use the print as the inspiration
for an abstraction.  Dave, as standard bearer of the traditional art
would probably make a exact reproduction of the original, which would
serve as the model from which all the others sprang.  I think thirty
different spins on the same image could be rather interesting placed side
by side.

What do you think?

***

Thanks for all of the suggestions about the best way in which to apply
leaf over oil-based ink.  I'm going to have to mull this one over for a
bit to decide on the best method of attack.

***
Maria, did the colored Murillo and Canson Me Teintes pastel paper hold up
to your driveway colorfastness test?  We don't get enough sun here in
Philly for me to get any accurate readings (and I don't even have a
driveway!).

Mise le meas,
James Mundie
Philadelphia USA

------------------------------

From: B Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:29:54 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6517] gold leaf again 

How long do you think it will take for the gold leaf to discolor?  I
will feel pretty bad if I sell art work and 10 years from now it
tarnishes. It is on rag paper and I store it carefully, after it leaves
my hands, who knows? I always use archival framing so that should help,
but occasionally I sell one with no frame. What do you think? Shall we
keep on using it and let the buyer beware?
Barbara

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 17:05:44 -1000
Subject: [Baren 6518] Re: gold leaf again 

B Mason wrote:
> How long do you think it will take for the gold leaf to discolor? 

That's a hard question to answer (you were expecting that, I bet). It
depends on too many variables that are out of your hands, particularly on
any unframed prints you might sell. There is a very real possibility of
composition leaf tarnishing within 10 years. For the little bit of gold
you are probably using on each print, the cost of real gold leaf would by
you a lot of peace of mind. If you do make the switch, I would recommend
"double weight" leaf, it is heavier than regular leaf, and easier to
handle.

Jack

------------------------------

From: Maria Arango <Maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 19:30:25 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6519] Re: driveway proof papers 

> Maria, did the colored Murillo and Canson Me Teintes pastel paper hold up
> to your driveway colorfastness test? 

You bet they did, Jim. I was truly surprised because they are both deep
rich colors. You can check out the Canson red at
http://www.mariarango.com/bredcanyon.html
and the Murillo chestnut at http://www.mariarango.com/bhija.html
I got the Canson from Dan Smith but any art supply carries it. The
Murillo I got from Flax Art Supplies.Once I tried colored paper I fell
in love with the way it adds to a particular image. It also creates a
special challenge to plan a print with a bright or deep color; black ink
looks awesome on colored paper.

Good luck with it.
Maria

------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:04:15 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6520] next exchange & Papers 

James wrote....
>Here's my ha'penny's worth about Exchange #5.  Those ideas about the
>division of labor were interesting, but I cannot imagine how that would
>all play out in practical terms.  Truth be told, I would probably not
>participate in an exchange like that.

I would not participate as I am of the school that places the creation in
the development of a image
over the school of technique/craft/skill to achieving and image.  It is
good there are both schools but the 'statement' is my thingie

> what if all thirty participants took their inspiration from the same image?
>What do you think?

Ya that works.  The Victoria Art Gallery had a fund raiser doing this very
thing.  We had to interrupt an Emily Carr painting and render it in the
medium and style of the each participating artist.
Some pretty wild stuff.

>Maria, did the colored Murillo and Canson Me Teintes pastel paper hold up
>to your driveway colorfastness test?

When considering coloured papers you should look at a Fabriano paper called
'Tisiano', a pastel and drawing paper.  I have been using this for the past
4 years when my source for the Mi Teintes dried up.  It is smoother with a
slight linen texture .... and is tough as all get out... I have grown to
like it better than Mi Teintes.

Graham

------------------------------

From: John Ryrie <j.ryrie@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:47:40 +1100
Subject: [Baren 6521] gold leaf 

>Beaten egg white, (called glair) has indeed been used for centuries for gilding
>on parchment and paper, but it was always applied by brush.

your right a friend of mine had this problem of stiking gokd leaf to a woodcut
and he asked a paper conservator what was the beast stuff to use.   And egg
whit was the stuff.   he did apply it with a brush.  
Gold leaf will stick to oil based pinging ink wen it is wet.  

you can get artificial gold called Dutch Gold, 18 carat gold, 24 carat gold,
and whit gold ( or platinum leaf).  The last two are the most expensive and
never change colour.  The fake and 18 carat will but can be sprayed with
drawing fixative to prevent this.  There is also silver leaf which again needs
fixative. 

I like James's idea for an exchange.

John

------------------------------

End of Baren Digest V9 #771
***************************