Delivery-Agent: @(#)$Id: local.c,v 1.54 1998/10/30 06:30:53 akira1 Exp $ on canberra Received: by j.xx.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 2 Feb 2000 22:02:58 +0900 Return-Path: Received: from lancer.xx.or.jp (lancer.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.3]) by trantula.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with ESMTP id WAA29153 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:02:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from ml.xx.or.jp (ml.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.111]) by lancer.xx.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1554894 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:02:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with SMTP id WAA49488; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:00:17 +0900 Received: by ml.xx.or.jp; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:00:17 +0900 Received: (from ml@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) id WAA11118 for baren-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:00:16 +0900 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:00:16 +0900 Message-Id: <200002021300.WAA11118@ml.xx.or.jp> From: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Subject: Baren Digest V10 #887 Reply-To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Errors-To: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp Precedence: bulk [Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Sender: owner-baren-digest@ml.xx.or.jp X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 Baren Digest Wednesday, 2 February 2000 Volume 10 : Number 887 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: viscult@prodigy.net.mx Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:36:14 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8125] Re: Baren Digest V10 #884 Bareners, This is my point of view about the recent topics: Baren Forum is growing very fast, and it could be a sign that tells things are going fine here, but anyway, is obvious we need some organization. I like the idea of having a team of us giving a help about organization, but probabilly the name "Council" is not of the best fit for that, and that's why some of the peers may not like the idea...What about "Administration Team, Help Team" or something like that? About the exchanges...I like to participate in them, but lately it seems that it is becoming the main activity of the forum, but I think that's because we need to talk about many details involved in each project. What about creating a new section in the main page, just for the exchanges? there we could arrange every thing concerning to that. Exchanges allow you to share your work (mistakes and good points) without involving money as gallerists and dealers do. Also it encourages you when there is an specific subjet to work on. David Stones opinion sounds interesting for me: "no deadlines" is a good idea, although we could do one or two 'Themes and deadlines' a year. ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:41:37 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8126] Re: thoughts on why we go to the bother James wrote.... >Graham, I find the above statement a bit troubling. It seems that you >are saying you find the quality of prints in these exchanges to be sub >par, but I intend to argue the contrary. Whoa whoa hold on there James...... All I am saying is that without adjudication the standard is not what it could be. I am not saying anything about "sub par" We Canadians use Mish Mash and meaning a stew pot or variety. Isn't education fun....... (<:) I realized we have newbies and wannabies and fully understand we all started somewhere. If you want to see my first woodblock go to http://members.home.net/gscholes/jimmy.html As far as my comment about Sausage Factory. It is not to say it *is* being done but more to say the it *shouldn't* be done and to be cautious. >Graham, I didn't intend the above to be a harangue directed squarely at >you, but rather at a somewhat troubling sentiment that seems to have been >raising its head these past few days. I think what has been said can and will be a healthy and food (not sausages) for thought. I'm quite sure, and Hope, that it will cause some to sit back and reflect. We must always reach for those plateaus...... Am I getting repetitive??? Aw what the hell it's the privilege of being a senior. Grampa.... ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:47:08 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8127] Re: Baren Digest V10 #884 viscult wrote.... >probabilly the name "Council" is not of the best fit for that, and that's >why some of the peers may not like the idea...What about "Administration >Team, Help Team" or something like that? You forgot Joe Job..... and not to forget Lacky...... Gees..... I think I'm in trouble again. Graham ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:18:33 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8128] Re: Newbie questions Hi Dwight, Mulberry paper is not sized paper - therefore I don't think it will work well for you if wet or damp. I think you should print with it dry. The reason (and if I'm wrong here, 5 million people will correct it for us) hanga printing paper is used damp, is to sink the waterbased pigment *into* the fibers of the paper. You can actually hold one of these prints under a running faucet (after it has dried) and the pigments will not wash out! Don't try this at home, folks. Well, you can if you want to.:-) Hope this is of some help! Wanda DShack wrote: > I'm using mulberry paper, with speedball waterbased inks. The image is a > little fuzzy and not as dense as I'd like. The first one I did of this > image was on dry mulberry paper and the image was crisp and black. > >From reading, the reason for wetting the paper is to let it expand to keep > it in registration for multiple pulls. Are there other reasons? ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:33:14 +0900 Subject: [Baren 8129] Re: Council matters and nifty prints ... Jack wrote: > ...and that blockprint calendar is great! Is this indicative of the level > of amateur printmaking in Japan? Yes and no ... I certainly don't want to leave the impression that every hobby printmaker here can do work as good as this. But is it rare? Not at all. Hishiki-san probably has dozens of people on his little personal 'exchange' list - people making similar calendars and trading them with each other every year. *** Somebody asked about the 12th print in the calendar set ... The little iron objects are called (I belive) 'trivets'. They rest in the sand of a hibachi, and the kettle or whatever stands on top of them. These images are of course not just random pictures. He gave me a sheet with a little story that goes with each print, and in this he mentions that the image of the cold ash dying in the hibachi made a suitable image for the close of the 20th century (this is a 1999 calendar ...). *** Your comments on the focus and direction of the forum are all carefully noted. Especially appreciated are those that make me think we're on the right track, and that we have something here worth protecting and nurturing. Thanks! Dave ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:35:38 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8130] Re: Newbie questions > The > reason (and if I'm wrong here, 5 million people will correct it for us) > hanga printing paper is used damp, is to sink the waterbased pigment > *into* the fibers of the paper. > Speaking for the oily folks, dampened paper "takes" the ink better and you get a more saturated and crisper impression. I have even dampened unsized paper with better results than when printed dry. A word of caution, when dampening unsized paper and using oil based inks, the paper will tear horrendously (that is a technical term) if you don't use something like Miracle Gel reducer. On dampening, ready to print paper should feel "soft and cold" is the way I would describe it. Never actually damp or wet. Others can probably chime in on the traditional Hanga method. Health to all, Maria - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "John Ryrie" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Baren 8131] new member charset="iso-8859-1" Welcome abroad Jaime I'm of to set up my exhibition today I'll be back in five days time to read all the emails. You should be out of trouble by then Graham, or at least in a new lot of trouble. John http://www.geocities.com/laddertree ------------------------------ From: viscult@prodigy.net.mx Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:34:27 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8132] Re: An interesting adress To all: If you like artist books, I found a very large an interesting page about it: http://www2.biblinat.gouv.qc.ca/artiste/accueil ...many prints, some of them on wood, Enjoy, Juan Guerrero, Mexico ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:55:33 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8133] Re: Council matters and nifty prints ... charset="iso-8859-1" I want one of those calendars of Mr. Hishiki-san! I would love to at least let him know how much I enjoyed his work - does anyone know if there is a Japanese translation program available? I have one in Spanish which has been very helpful. Also I want to comment on the concept of a Council - I don't care what it is called - I just want Dave to know how much I appreciate his good work on the Baren, his thoughtful responses to what sometimes seem like childish tantrums, as well as his extraordinary hanga work and willingness to share his expertise. I think the concept of the Council is excellent and will allow the expanded Baren to continue to prosper without killing the founder. I do think the concept of having a Council discussion site available for comment on a web page is a good idea. It would provide a place for people who want to take part to do so without filling the forum space. Good to be back. Bea Gold ------------------------------ From: "John/Michelle Morrell" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:11:31 -0900 Subject: [Baren 8134] The bible thing, etc. charset="iso-8859-1" Just a note to say that Mr. Hishiki's calendar is a sheer pleasure. As is Barry Moser's Caxton Bible--and none of these treats would have been available to me if I had not overcome the urge to race on thru my e-mail and hit the delete button on the Baren postings. (And, I have been having to do that a lot lately from pure lack of time, as have, I suspect, a number of other Baren members.) I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchanges I have had time to participate in. I do not understand what the fuss about what the Baren was, is and may become, forums, councils and standards. It all sounds very bureaucratic to me. - --Michelle M. ------------------------------ From: Arafat Alnaim Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:21:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baren 8135] Re: An interesting adress Dear Juan Guerrero, The address doesn't work please try to send it again. Arafat To all: If you like artist books, I found a very large an interesting page about it: http://www2.biblinat.gouv.qc.ca/artiste/accueil ...many prints, some of them on wood, Enjoy, Juan Guerrero, Mexico __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:25:12 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8136] re: Why bother at all!!!!! Graham writes: "I have only taken part in one.... that is setting time to create a piece in the time frame alloted... Most times there is not enough time and did pull out of 2 Exchange. The first one, Fisher, I happened to have something hanging around. The Rain Dance was a piece I was working on prior to the exchange and the 2 1/2 months it took to finalize the prints fitted the deadline." Something Hanging around ?...........You should not have bothered! While some of us newbies where looking towards the pros for help and excited to be treated as equals and we worked so hard on our prints....now I learn that you thought so little of our exchange group as to send in "something hanging around". Is this the kind of teaching you refer too ? Graham also writes: "If you need to be under pressure or deadlines to do your best then I suggest you commit to a one person or small group show and go to it..... Three things that are better about it. You will probably make a buck or two, puts you name into the public forum in your territory, and reach skill plateaus. Exchanges do not do any of this." First....I don't think you should be talking about committment in lieu of your pullout of two exchanges at the last instance. Second....I can see the order of your priorities.. the almighty buck and publicity comes first with you. No wonder your postings to baren are full of advertisements for tools, pigments, paper, bootcamp, etc. etc.....I don't doubt that the products you push are superior to the common stuff....and Yes I know...you don't make any money on this......but if you read the fine print in the Baren intro....PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ADVERTISING..... Third...All you have to do is look at the work of members that have participated in three or four of the exchanges to see a definite improvement in everyone's technique. If having your exchange prints exhibited in shows in Kyoto, Manhattan, Chicago, Uganda & Australia does not put your name in the public forum.....what does ? Is funny....but the people that have spoken out against the growth & rate of the exchanges are people that have participated in only one or not at all...............not one peep from members that participated in multiple exchanges.........I wonder why that is ? Julio ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:12:42 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8137] Re: Council matters and nifty prints ... Bea wrote.... >I just want Dave to know how much I appreciate his good work on the >Baren, his thoughtful responses to what sometimes seem like childish >tantrums, Hey second your comments re Dave and thank you so much for the last part of the statement. Now you are in Big trouble....sure takes a load off me. Graham ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 21:18:10 -1000 Subject: [Baren 8138] Re: new member John Ryrie wrote: > Welcome abroad Jaime > > I'm of to set up my exhibition today I'll be back in five days time to read > all the emails. > You should be out of trouble by then Graham, or at least in a new lot of > trouble. You're worrying about Graham in trouble, while you're calling a brand new member a broad? :>) Jack ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:07:37 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8139] Re: new member >Welcome abroad Jaime > >I'm of to set up my exhibition today I'll be back in five days time to read >all the emails. >You should be out of trouble by then Graham, or at least in a new lot of >trouble. > >John >http://www.geocities.com/laddertree Hey .... good luck on you exhibition. g ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:34:01 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8140] Re: Why bother at all!!!!! Julio. Before I respond Julio would you like to reconsider what you have written. I have a very clear conscience about my contributions and sincerity toward the development of all members. I truly am disappointed in what you have said. Graham >Graham writes: > >"I have only taken part in one.... that is setting time to create a piece in >the time frame alloted... Most times there is not enough time and did pull >out of 2 Exchange. The first one, Fisher, I happened to have something >hanging around. The Rain Dance was a piece I was working on prior to the >exchange and the 2 1/2 months it took to finalize the prints fitted the >deadline." > >Something Hanging around ?...........You should not have bothered! While >some of >us newbies where looking towards the pros for help and excited to be >treated as >equals and we worked so hard on our prints....now I learn that you thought so >little of our > exchange group as to send in "something hanging around". Is this the >kind of >teaching > you refer too ? > >Graham also writes: > >"If you need to be under pressure or deadlines to do your best then I >suggest you commit to a one person or small group show and go to it..... >Three things that are better about it. You will probably make a buck or >two, puts you name into the public forum in your territory, and reach skill >plateaus. Exchanges do not do any of this." > >First....I don't think you should be talking about committment in lieu of your >pullout >of two exchanges at the last instance. Second....I can see the order of your >priorities.. >the almighty buck and publicity comes first with you. No wonder your postings >to baren >are full of advertisements for tools, pigments, paper, bootcamp, etc. >etc.....I >don't doubt that >the products you push are superior to the common stuff....and Yes I know...you >don't make any money >on this......but if you read the fine print in the Baren intro....PLEASE >REFRAIN >FROM ADVERTISING..... >Third...All you have to do is look at the work of members that have >participated >in three or four > of the exchanges to see a definite improvement in everyone's technique. > > If having your exchange prints exhibited in shows in Kyoto, Manhattan, >Chicago, >Uganda & >Australia does not put your name in the public forum.....what does ? > >Is funny....but the people that have spoken out against the growth & rate of >the exchanges are people >that have participated in only one or not at all...............not one >peep from >members that participated >in multiple exchanges.........I wonder why that is ? > >Julio ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:41:47 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8141] A little story.... I am very proud to have participated in all the exchanges so far....and I usually don't waste an opportunity to share the prints with others. I have probably shown #1 & #2 to approx. 30 - 40 people, while recently arrived #3 and #4 to another dozen or so. These people include family, fellow workers, friends, the staff at the library, the managers of the many frameshops I visited last month and just about anybody who happens to be around while I am carrying the folios. Invariably there are quite a few showstoppers among the prints...that usually leave people gasping with....wow!, that's very nice, such detail!, great colors....etc...etc...but for the majority of the prints....people browse thru the folios and go on to the next print without saying much. I usually fill in the silence with things like....that's from a guy in Africa....or from a Canadian living in Japan, or from a well-known artist in New York...etc...etc. There is one print that everyone has stopped at and pauses wanting to know more. It's from exchange #1 and is a funny child-like picture of a world-like image with some funny "things" flying around. It's titled "Baren World". The artists' name is not quite legible as it seems like he just scribbled some initials or something on the side and really did not sign the print. Everyone has asked me about that print. It is a print poor in technical quality, badly registered in some colors, and quite a "mich mash" busy composition. But everyone (I mean everyone !) wants to know a little about it. For those that recognize what a baren tool is....and see the funny objects as PC's....a light goes on right away and they say....That's you guys....that's your group.....BAREN.......then they smile and ask who the artist is. Others don't know what a baren is, like the lady who said it looked like the earth wrapped up by wires from the internet...or the guy at work who said "the earth is on fire from an attack of laser beams from outer space".....but once I explain the baren tool....they all get it...It's your group....Baren, the printmakers....clever idea one guy said. There is always a smile from the viewer like he's in touch with the artist, like he understands......followed by... who did that print ? What these people don't know....and the people at BAREN don't know either is that for a fact....that is the very first woodblock print ever made by this guy...not only that...but it is also the very first PRINT of any kind ever made by this guy. To tackle such a job for a very first print.... an edition of over 40, in the traditional hanga watercolor style, with 7 woodblocks and several colors and to be associated with prints from such an established group of printmakers as those found in that very first exchange ........leads me to believe that this guy did not have it all together upstairs. End of story. While meeting with the staff at the library last december to discuss and finalize details for our upcoming spring exhibition, we eventually got around to the subject of announcement cards. I brought along some examples to share with Carolyn & Gail and we proceeded to discuss details of what should go on the 500+ cards needed. After all pertinent necessary info was agreed upon....it was suggested by them that the card needed some image that would tie it into the theme of the exhibition. Their immediate suggestion was for me to use the Baren-World image on the card as it truly represented to them what this group coming together and these exchanges meant. There are some really fantastic prints in these exchanges. Some are so technically advanced that I wish I had another lifetime to reach that plateau. But for that guy that spent countless hours working & reworking away at his little print...trying to measure up...trying to learn with one hand holding the knife and the other on the keyboard looking up Baren updates... is not too bad of an achievement ........for a very first print that is. Thanks.....Julio ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:09:51 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8142] Help OK You guys, enough mud slinging, lets get back to the main thing we are all here for, furthering the woodblock print and helping those of us who need it. I am in deep elephant doo..... I have read all the encyclopedia and all the books I can find and of course they all say different things. I was soooooo very new to this last June at boot camp that most of it went over my head. I am having a heck of a time carving the blocks. My tools are sharp, my hand is steady, it goes downhill from there. If I hold the To in my right hand like a fist and not like a pencil, I keep the straight side on the outside of the line? It seems backwards to me, I reasoned it would be the other way to give a wider base to the line. If I guide the To with my left hand and push down with my right hand and use the middle finger of my left hand to "push" the To, I can't seem to do it. If I pull with the right hand, using the left hand index finger to guide and push the To it works better for me. I am not doing a great job of this. The carving is so far winning, carving 10, Barbara 1........This should be easier than printing, right? Well, not for me.What am I doing wrong? why is this so hard? I can fudge it with the gouges, but I really want to learn to use the To. Help, help, help! Barbara ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 02:41:56 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8143] re: Open letter to Graham Graham: You are without doubt an invaluable member of this group. Your quick & witty advise to never-ending silly questions, your jokes and your teachings here are second to none. I always look forward to your postings because I know there is usually something worth capturing. Your credentials are impecable and you have accomplished more in your "short" career as a woodblock printmaker than most of us wish to ever achieve in a hundred lifetimes. As a founding father of this group and probably one of the most renown artist among us...everyone understands your good interests for the group and your enthusiasm to pass on all the things you have learned along the way. I have learned plenty from you as so have many others. We all admire and look up to the quality of your work. I just wish you stop being such a pain in the rump sometimes....and stop straddling both sides of the fence on certain issues. Age does not give you the right to be so dictatorial. Did not meant to offend you in the previous post...but only to vent the frustration of having people not fully participating in exchanges telling me wether my work and that of others is "not up to standards". Whose ? Yours ? Print exchanges accomplish one thing. People making woodblock prints and sharing them with their peers. Because of the four exchanges we have had....there are over 3000 new fresh woodblock prints out there in the world to carry on.....prints that may have never come to be if it not for these "sub-par" exchanges.....prints that could perhaps...just perhaps....plant a seed on some young budding artist...perhaps a child at a library....or one of our very own members childrens.....perhaps a future Durer or a Rembrandt for the 21st Century. With best regards......Julio ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V10 #887 ****************************