Delivery-Agent: @(#)$Id: local.c,v 1.54 1998/10/30 06:30:53 akira1 Exp $ on jetstar Received: by j.xx.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 3 Feb 2000 07:12:28 +0900 Return-Path: Received: from lancer.xx.or.jp (lancer.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.3]) by trantula.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with ESMTP id HAA05078 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:12:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from ml.xx.or.jp (ml.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.111]) by lancer.xx.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD25B48AC for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:12:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with SMTP id HAA15072; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:47 +0900 Received: by ml.xx.or.jp; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:47 +0900 Received: (from ml@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) id HAA15198 for baren-digest-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:47 +0900 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:09:47 +0900 Message-Id: <200002022209.HAA15198@ml.xx.or.jp> From: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Subject: Baren Digest V10 #888 Reply-To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Errors-To: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp Precedence: bulk [Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Sender: owner-baren-digest@ml.xx.or.jp X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 Baren Digest Wednesday, 2 February 2000 Volume 10 : Number 888 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Bull Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:41:15 +0900 Subject: [Baren 8144] Exchange critiques ... The mail folders in which I've been dumping all the critiques sent from the Exchange web pages are bulging these days, but I still haven't had a chance to do any updating of the pages themselves. But the longer we go, the less interesting such comments will be when I _do_ get them uploaded. Here's how you can help. Take a look at the 'samples' that I just uploaded - the two pages that show my _own_ prints in Exchange #3 and #4. You will see there short extracts from critiques I received, along with my responses. If you wish such additions to be made to _your_ pages, then get busy with your electronic 'copy/paste' tools, and go through the emails you exchanged with people who sent you critiques. Do the editing yourself, get it into the same format that you see on those two sample pages, and then send it to me (off-list, of course) so that I can update your page. Make sure you make it clear to me which parts are the comments, and which parts are your reply. Don't worry about making extra work for me with this - if you get it all ready for me clearly, then it won't take me more than a couple of minutes to update each page. Over to you! Dave ------------------------------ From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:16:57 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8145] Re: Baren Digest V10 #887 Maria, you speak of dampening paper for oil based relief prints. What kind of paper are you using? I can't imagine I could do that with kitakata paper. Gayle ------------------------------ From: "David Stones" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:10:29 +0900 Subject: [Baren 8146] Re: Pace Philosophy charset="iso-2022-jp" Dear All, I was hesitant about putting comment on the pace and subject decisions for [Baren] exchanges because, often, posts are scanned and genuine intentions are missed. The exchange conversation has now, very unfortunately, gone way off the kento into such as to whether the exchange work is good and non-participants (myself also?) "speaking against"an idea I personally wish to improve but cannot participate in at present... My intention was the forgetting of the time element/time-restricted themes. The reason is to enhance the exchange system to let people produce their best in their best way (development through being required to do something you do not feel intense about or have real interest is maybe for private study). It's also to slow down the pace by eliminating time limits. Jack's idea solves this but why is there a need to dictate a theme? (No theme frees those who've taken time to help with the council from making decisions). These thoughts could improve the work experiences and also show to the newer printers the values - and not just the results - of working in a slower-moving (and for me, 98% natural materials') art form. If you need a schedule to produce "on time" then just set it... Hanga is not mass production - or it shouldn't be - it's creative and labor intensive. The clock, as I would like to suggest again, should remain stopped in a printroom. My blocks took over 60 years to grow and I don't think it wise to use them in any way but with care. I'd like to pass on this bit of hanga philosophy to anyone it may assist... Ishita (Dave S) ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:21:36 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8147] Re: Baren Digest V10 #887 Gayle, You would have to do it carefully as the paper is so thin but still strong. Graham showed us away to register very thin damp paper when we were at boot camp. The problem is of course the paper becomes so soft when damp. So you lay it down and lay a heavier piece of say, bond paper of tag board with it and then hold them both when registering, then remove the heavier paper after you drop the two onto the block. It worked very well, I had sort of forgotten that till I read your post. It is easier to print on dry paper, but oil based inks seem to print better on damp paper, I tried about 15 papers for my portrait and finally got the best copys from BFK but I was using the press (cheating, I know) I got very fuzzy prints on dry Kitakata, I never thought to try it damp, now I will have to try it. Barbara Gayle Wohlken wrote: > Maria, you speak of dampening paper for oil based relief prints. What > kind of paper are you using? I can't imagine I could do that with > kitakata paper. > > Gayle ------------------------------ From: "Jandi Goshert" Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:51:29 PST Subject: [Baren 8148] Re: So many exchanges! >Some good thoughts here....however------ >Here is a better one .... > >If you need to be under pressure or deadlines to do your best then I >suggest you commit to a one person or small group show and go to it..... >Three things that are better about it. You will probably make a buck or >two, puts you name into the public forum in your territory, and reach skill >plateaus. > >Exchanges do not do any of this. The opportunity to participate in the Dragon exchange and the #5 exchange have given commitments to fullfill. This has given me the boost I needed to continue on my own and since I've done the dragon, I've done 3 other blocks for my own purposes. Being part of the exchanges ensures that I will continue to be productive because i have a responsibility to others, not just myself. I look at it as sort of a "class project" that catapults me to new ideas. For me, a little bit of structure is all I need to go on to bigger and better things, thereby making all the things you mentioned possible. Believe me, I fully intend on making a name and a buck or two! I know myself, and althought I don't like to admit it,participation in the exchanges makes it much more likely for me to do other things outside of them. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:14:07 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8149] Re: Open letter to Graham Julio, This is not acceptable. First praise and then another slam dunk..... >I just wish you stop being such a pain in the rump sometimes....and stop >straddling both sides of the fence on certain issues. Age does not give >you the >right to be so dictatorial. This is the third such posting (the first was a private one few months back) and quite frankly this kind of personal finger pointing is are NOT ACCEPTABLE. A simple apology is in order..... Graham - ------------------------------------- >Graham >You are without doubt an invaluable member of this group. Your quick & witty >advise to never-ending silly questions, your jokes and your teachings here are >second to none. I always look forward to your postings because I know >there is >usually something worth capturing. > >Your credentials are impecable and you have accomplished more in your "short" >career as a woodblock printmaker >than most of us wish to ever achieve in a hundred lifetimes. As a founding >father of this group and probably one of the most >renown artist among us...everyone understands your good interests for the >group >and your enthusiasm to pass on >all the things you have learned along the way. I have learned plenty from >you as >so have many others. We all admire and look up to the quality of your work. > >I just wish you stop being such a pain in the rump sometimes....and stop >straddling both sides of the fence on certain issues. Age does not give >you the >right to be so dictatorial. > >Did not meant to offend you in the previous post...but only to vent the >frustration of having people not fully participating in exchanges telling me >wether my work and that of others is "not up to standards". Whose ? Yours ? > >Print exchanges accomplish one thing. People making woodblock prints and >sharing >them with their peers. Because of the four exchanges we have had....there are >over 3000 new fresh woodblock prints out there in the world to carry >on.....prints that may have never come to be if it not for these "sub-par" >exchanges.....prints that could perhaps...just perhaps....plant a seed >on some young budding artist...perhaps a child at a library....or one of our >very own members childrens.....perhaps a future Durer or a Rembrandt for the >21st Century. > >With best regards......Julio ------------------------------ From: agatha Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:36:03 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8150] Re: Baren Digest V10 #887 Well, Well! Such passion to be had on this forum! It's rather exciting! I have a question about tools. I am going to splurge some of my tax return money on some tools and a press from Dan Patrick, even though I really shouldn't. McClain's has two sets that they sell together. One set is four tools and includes a Maru To 3.0, Maru To 4.5, Maru To 7.5, and a Sanakatu To 3.0. The other set is six tools and includes Maru To's 1.5, 4.5, 9.0, Sanakatu To 3.0, Sho To 4.5, and a Hira To 4.5. These names mean nothing to me except that I think that the To is the blade type knife that you use to make lines, correct? (I am probably totally wrong about that...) Anyhow, would anyone recommend either of these sets as a good set for beginners? I am looking for a sort of basic set of the most commonly used tools. Also, is anyone familiar with the tool seller Harrelson Stanley? I believe he calls his company Hiraide. He has been very helpful in recommending tools for me, but his tools are extremely expensive. Are the tools he sells worth buying for a beginner? Thanks, as always, for the input. By the way, I wanted to let the folks that sent me criticism for exchange #3 to know that I really appreciate the feedback. I would like more actual criticism, if anyone is brave enough to tackle that task. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:48:25 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8151] Re: So many exchanges! charset="iso-8859-1" Dear Graham Your answer to m y post; "If you need to be under pressure or deadlines to do your best then I suggest you commit to a one person or small group show and go to it. Three things taht are better about it. You will probably make a buck or two, puts your name into the public forum in your territory , and reach skill plateaus" I am afraid that I took that personal, as to may talents as an artist. First, I am well known in my "territory", my skills as an artist and teacher for over 30 years have made me confident in what I do. To suggest that I commit to a one person or small group show and go to it, I think is a little insulting. I thought for a brief time of dropping out of Baren. But I will not. I love this group and refuse to allow anyone to make me feel inferior. I have always enjoyed your teachings and wit and it sorrows me that you may have influenced a few newbies to hesitate before entering into any Print exchanges . Ease up Graham. We are here because David started this wonderful site for us to enjoy. Whether we want to learn, reach across the world to other like minds and enjoy the Baren. So I am not the most wonderful woodblock printmaker in the world, but because of Baren, I am trying! Now, I will go. I have an opening to attend. It is an invitational art exhibit where I am exhibiting 10 paintings! Jeanne N. I echo Julio in his posts! ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:00 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8152] Re: Baren Digest V10 #887 charset="iso-8859-1" Gayle Your question was to Maria re; dampening [paper for oil based ink. I dampen my paper, except when using the oriental papers . I usually use the Rives Lightweight and soak it for about 30 minutes. Works for me. Kitataka is too delicate to dampen for oils. In fact sometimes the print looks really nice on the reverse side. Jeanne N. ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:49:55 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8153] Re: Baren Digest V10 #887 I have used Kitakata dampened, works very well! You will be surprised at how strong these Japanese papers are even when dampened. I know they feel like they will fall apart, but it is not so. Other papers I have used dampened with good result: Okawara hand made, Mulberry natural, Mulberry, Ogura, Hosho, Kaisuri, Daphne and a whole bunch of western papers, mostly BFK lightweight, Magnani Pescia and Incisione, Arches 88, Arches black and tan (both left unsized), Niggedden, Hanhemuller printmaking, Murillo, I can't remember any others at the moment. Ever since I tried dampening, I don't print on dry paper unless! I am planning very tight registration. I found that the Japanese papers hold their shape and moisture much more consistently than western papers. I still like the "meatiness" of the western papers for certain things, especially larger prints (22 x 30" or larger). Whatever you do, _make sure_ that you use some type of release agent like miracle gel if you dampen Japanese papers or you will spend the day picking paper remnants off your block. Hope this helps, Maria Gayle Wohlken wrote: > Maria, you speak of dampening paper for oil based relief prints. What > kind of paper are you using? I can't imagine I could do that with > kitakata paper. > > Gayle Ishita, Although I do appreciate the philosophy you are trying to impart, it would be in my opinion, a complete disaster to have an exchange with no deadline, no due date, no structure... Okay for a small group of printmakers to do, but when 30 people are trying to come to an agreement on a print exchange, to set no time limits and no deadline would mean: - -some people would just not get around to it at all, resulting in incomplete sets - -everyone would have to spend money to mail to everyone else, since we cannot expect even the most patient coordinator to keep all those prints taking up space for a year or more - -some people would not get around to it at all--did I already say that? I respect your philosophy, believe me. But there is a practical aspect of an exchange that, like it or not, all the participants have to deal with. As for the themes, we don't have to have one if that is the consensus, but the fact is that when we did set a theme the exchange lists filled up much more rapidly. I know, there is that darned speed-thing again. Anyway, themeless exchanges will be coming back, as will longer deadlines. We're listening! Really. Health to all, Maria - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:19:19 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8154] Just some last words.... Graham: If you did not take my previous open post to you for the apology that it was, then I will do so again here. I apologize to you and Baren for my harsh comments. I feel I have spoken out of line and broken those same rules on which Baren ideals of communication were founded. The 108 prints created in the four exchanges have certainly touched the lives of the 59 participants and their immediate families who perhaps shared and endured with the hardships and tribulations of those of us involved. Also the lives of the many people browsing over the images on the website as well as the audiences in New York and Kyoto. Surely the upcoming exhibits will continue to spread our love for printmaking to countless others. A worthy cause. Regards..........Julio ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:31:32 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8155] echoing Julio in his posts! Jeanne I'm sorry if I insulted you or anyone. It is not my style Your answer to my post; > >"If you need to be under pressure or deadlines to do your best then I >suggest you commit to a one person or small group show and go to it. Three >things taht are better about it. You will probably make a buck or two, puts >your name into the public forum in your territory , and reach skill >plateaus" > >I am afraid that I took that personal, as to may talents as an artist. >First, I am well known in my "territory", my skills as an artist and teacher >for over 30 years have made me confident in what I do. > To suggest that I commit to a one person or small group show and go to it, >I think is a little insulting. > >I thought for a brief time of dropping out of Baren. > But I will not. I love this group and refuse to allow anyone to make me >feel inferior. > >I have always enjoyed your teachings and wit and it sorrows me that you may >have influenced a few newbies to hesitate before entering into any Print >exchanges . > >Ease up Graham. > We are here because David started this wonderful site for us to enjoy. >Whether we want to learn, reach across the world to other like minds and >enjoy the Baren. > >So I am not the most wonderful woodblock printmaker in the world, but >because of Baren, I am trying! > >Now, I will go. I have an opening to attend. It is an invitational art >exhibit where I am exhibiting 10 paintings! > >Jeanne N. > >I echo Julio in his posts! ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:49:38 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8156] Re: echoing Julio in his posts! charset="iso-8859-1" Graham I do fly off the handle sometimes. One thing about ruffled feathers is; they will all smooth out Wishing you and everyone, smooth feathers! Jeanne N. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel Dew" Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:30:27 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8157] Newbie Response I love this forum, sometimes I tire of the postings by some. #1) I like the exchanges. They force me to look, re-look, examine and try for a new thought, new idea, new idium that I haven't attempted before. To whit, I never did a "real" woodblock until joining #5. I sincerely hope it is well accepted, be forwarned that I have a tendency to cry if you're too mean in your criticisms (only kidding). On a more serious note. I have learned much from the discussions (like I probably won't try hanga printing for quite some time) and feel that my work and my life have been blessed. #2) Dave, set up anyway you want if it means that the site and discussions will continue. The last thing I want to see is the Baren disinegrate. #3) Is it O.K. to suggest that personal battles and slams be kept private between the individuals? For the last two days I have been just deleting certain messages from certain folks, without even reading them. I have learned much from both of these two (three?) and it just tears me up to delete without reading, but only so many hours in a day....... Sincerely, Dan Dew USA P.S. I hope that I don't get dragged into the fray with this, oh well. ------------------------------ From: SKHeidel@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:59:46 EST Subject: [Baren 8158] Re: Newbie Response I know we are all supposed to avoid the "me too's" but I have to agree with everything David said. I have deleted several unread messages this past week as well. I came to this group as a beginner in printmaking. I have a lot of expertise in behavior management, however. Some of you may want to consider a list on that subject. No personal postings means just that. Can I please just receive postings about the art and not the artists and their inability to get along? David I support your recent efforts to reform Baren. But, you already know that because I sent you a personal message and did not clutter the list. I will hang on for one more week. Please if you feel like fighting, address your message to the person you wish to tangle with and leave the rest of us to the business of printmaking. Sandy ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:42:18 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8159] Re: Tools > > I have a question about tools. I am going to splurge some of my tax return money on > some tools and a press from Dan Patrick, even though I really shouldn't. McClain's has > two sets that they sell together. > Anyhow, would anyone recommend either of these sets as a good set for beginners? > On tools, as in everything else, you will find different recommendations from members. But a general rule of thumb is: if you are serious about woodblock printmaking, buy the best you can possibly afford. If you see yourself as just trying this out to see if you like it, then go down a notch. If you are positively in love with the craft, then go up three notches and buy the best there is. McClain's sets are a good choice. Once you start cutting you will begin to have specialized needs and then you can expand your set accordingly. Also check out Woodcraft's tools and ...I forget just now. Go to http://www.printmakingstudio.com/links.html and check out some of the suppliers there. Some of us blasphemous non-traditional types cut with Western made tools (Flexcut Palm Set), although I confess to have been adding those delicious Japanese knives little by little. Hope this helps, Maria - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:00:36 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8160] re: tools Hi Agatha...........regarding your request for help.....I second Maria's words...buy the best you can afford. Cose to home, here are several Baren related sites where you can find all the info you need to get going on tools and materials: http://members.home.net/woodblocks/Materials.html http://www.w.com/encyclopedia/entries/007_04/007_04_frame.html http://www.w.com/encyclopedia/topics/001/001_frame.html http://www.w.com/encyclopedia/topics/014/014_frame.html Good luck......Julio ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:11:44 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8161] Re: echoing Julio in his posts! >Graham > >I do fly off the handle sometimes. > >One thing about ruffled feathers is; they will all smooth out > >Wishing you and everyone, smooth feathers! > >Jeanne N. You know what it is Jeanne? I believe it is the creative genes that are tumbling around in our bods.... If they can't get out thought our fingertips they come out other ways and sometimes get all jumbled up without the guidance of our Mom or Dads or a good nights sleep..... ( <: Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:18:19 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8162] You gotta go for it..... Dan wrote.... >On a more serious note. I have learned much from the discussions (like I >probably won't try hanga printing for quite some time) and feel that my work >and my life have been blessed. How can I build your confidence to get in there..... It honestly is not hard.... True there is a steep learning curve but with the information that is around the forum you would be in good hands. Go for it .... we are here to help. Graham ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:01:47 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8163] new image A while ago I became fascinated with the beauty of the carved blocks. Never mind the prints! Since I do reduction prints mostly, I usually draw my images on the block with a permanent marker, which withstands repeated stages of printing without fading. So there I was, looking at my block, tinted with brown ink so I can see the cuts, with natural highlights carved out, black marker defining the line--I wished I could have a print just like that. Well, here 'tis. The block is maple, my first on plank maple, paper is Ingres in what they call Tobacco color, a pastel paper used on the smooth side. It is a two stage reduction. The carving was a bit more challenging than previous images. Let me know what you think, will ya? Thanks, Maria http://www.printmakingstudio.com/fullsize/carvedmen.html - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:13:07 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8164] Tools and Stuff. Agatha wrote.... >I have a question about tools. I am going to splurge some of my tax >return money on >some tools and a press from Dan Patrick, even though I really shouldn't. May I suggest that you do not bite off more than you can handle. I say this because, a Patrick Press although a good deal, is not necessary to do Hanga. It's another method of printmaking. It is something you have to sort out but let me suggest that you consider one method for now and then you can move on. The cost to by tools for both may be prohibitive if not frightening. If you go to my site http://members.home.net/woodblocks/Materials.html there is a minimum list of tools that can be considered. You do not need all the ones I have listed and if you want me to give you a basic starting set, I would be pleased to do so. By the way I do not sell these (other than at boot camp) and recommend you go to McClain's I suggest you get the Baren from Noboru Sawai in Vancouver. These are adequate to start you into the Hanga method... I can put you in touch with him. His are around the $50. mark and are exactly the same as McClain's at $100.00 (other tools are available from him but McClain's prices are about the same and it may be a little easier deal States side) The tools that are listed are professional and the best you can buy... Two reasons for buying the best is..... they quite possible will last a life time and if you find you don't like the sport, you can put them up for sale and probably get pretty close to the price you paid. I would not suggest a Sanakatu to start. I say this based on my experience..... I carved and printed a dozen plus pieces before I thought I should try on of them. They are very fussy tools to sharpen. >These names mean nothing to me except that I think that the To is the >blade type knife >that you use to make lines, correct? (I am probably totally wrong about >that...) You got that right... except we call it cutting a line. Go look at the pages here and you will get some insight http://members.home.net/woodblocks/index.html Graham Victoria Canada ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V10 #888 ****************************