[Baren} the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Wednesday, 31 May 2000 Volume 11 : Number1027 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jean Eger" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 05:59:11 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9828] how long? I've been making prints since around 1967 when I took a course at the Richmond Art Center. I made a black and white print of me pregnant, looking in the mirror, with an open window and the moon behind me, echoing the shape of the mirror. AFter my son was born, I made a print of him sleeping in blankets on the floor, next to a foot locker. Now he has two children of his own. Since that time, I have made several self-portraits at critical times in my life. One was just called "Point Richmond Woman," after a man dumped me, saying he'd never marry a Point Richmond woman. It was a sad, sad face. Just checking...how am I today? Feeling great, gotta go say a cheery hello to about 40 kids. Jean Eger http://users.lanminds.com/~jeaneger ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:22:26 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9829] printmaking vs printing I think Barbara P hit the nail on the head when she said something to the effect that some artists, me included, engage in printmaking because of the pure joy of the process--printmaking, rather because of the result of making and distributing multiples--printing. Daryl and I were talking once and we were discussing that the art and craft (I believe to be both) of printmaking for us, involved much more than the making of multiples or reproducing faithfully a well drawn image. That is also where many printmakers are divided, some working out their designs completely in advanced, separating colors exactly with a computer or tracing precisely, then cutting with dremmels and lasers to achieve a perfect elegant print, an exact reproduction of the original drawing or painting. Others, where I fit, are more sloppy in their approach, letting the loose sketch on the block barely guide the knives, hacking away with the chisel leaving the characteristic marks, glopping the ink so that it chunks at the edges and mixes in unexpected ways. The result is a much less elegant but fresher and yummier print, only in my opinion, an inevitably surprising image even to its creator. There is certainly room for both in the printmaking world and each will attract different audiences, since there seems to be a rather large audience even for elephant dung and push-pins. There is also a painting machine out there by the way, where the design is transferred to a computer and a special printer squirts real oil paint onto a canvas, complete with effects like impasto and pointillism. The inventor once declared in a small article in Art In America that he wanted to be known as: "the laziest artist in history." So laser away! Maria ------------------------------ From: Greg Robison Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:55:23 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9830] Re: editions and stuff ... Kampala, 30 May 2000 David Bull wrote: > Greg asked: > > Is there anything in particular that you would like me to cover in my > Baren-Suji piece? > > Is it redundant to ask that there be plenty of photos ??? Oh dear. I'm smarting from those three question marks, Dave, and the justified impatience implied in the word "redundant." A while ago there was on the List a clamouring for pictures of what's going on in Kampala. It has subsided a bit, but I read in the silence a bit of grumpy discontent: "If Julio can be so good at getting images up (and he was), why can't Greg?" Believe me, I am among the grumpily discontented: I want to share with you some images -- photographic ones, I mean -- and I apologize for your blank screens. Especially for those of you who have generously supported this show, either with cash or donations of prints, or both. You are perfectly within your rights to wonder why you can't see anything. I unfortunately depended upon someone else to put up our website, and I have been let down. I have taken quite a few pictures, though, so there's material to post, but I'm so overwhelmed with things at the moment that I can't afford investing the time to breach the gap caused by the defection of my info-man. (I sold five more prints yesterday, three today, and led a delegation headed by the Chinese Deputy Minister of Culture through the Gallery this afternoon.) We're all volunteers after all, and there's only so hard I can punch. (I should also mention that Josephine and others have kindly offered to assist me in this...but, for various reasons, I persisted in wanting to get it done here.) My 83-year-old father was right, telling me these last two years or so, "Greg, we've got to get one of those digital cameras! That's the way the world is going!" He's a long-since-retired professional photographer, from whom I also learned all the (teachable) essentials of drawing, and to whom I owe my introduction to printing in the typographic tradition, whence I came to woodblock printing. He'll be pleased to know that I've come around to his way of thinking (he's used to having to wait a bit sometimes). But it's Baren that has convinced me of the need for a website. Learning how to create and maintain one is next on the agenda of my ratio studiorum. Gregory Robison ------------------------------ From: Bella1yopp@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:13:00 EDT Subject: [Baren 9831] Re: editions and stuff ... Wow. I am really enjoying the discussion of editioning and selling. I find myself printing out many of the posts for future use. Reading the posts have made me think about great discussions I will have with my classes when I am a teacher or even to bring up in my coming years of gradschool. What fun!!!! I am not sure of my beliefs about editioning.... so these discussions have me really thinking about what is right for me. I have never reprinted an woodblock except when combining it with monotype. But I don't destroy my blocks either. Actually soon I will have to do something with them... since I will be moving to Wisconsin. Anyway, thank you everyone for such a lively discussion. It's really great to read others fierce views on issues that affect all woodblock artists. - -Amanda ------------------------------ From: Chris BeGell Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 9832] Re: Books and a print dealers website > In all the excited chatter I think you missed my > question? I saw "The Pillow Book", and loved it, but didn't know that there was an actual book! After I saw the movie I had to learn how to do stab binding, with the hopes of combining that and printing, but so far I haven't joined the two. I've really enjoyed following the discussion on editioning, it's been very educational, thanks Chris ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:38:13 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9833] another (not so) dumb question. Dan said > Not pen, or marker, or >crayon, but good old #2. Why?" Its to do with being archival Dan. Pencil doesn't degrade the paper or deteriorate over time like pen does. Another convention. Josephine ------------------------------ From: "Bridget Henry" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:12:02 PDT Subject: [Baren 9834] Re: Baren Digest Hello, Maria thanks for the reply to the money making question. There is allot of good information in your reply, some of which I am already doing and some I have never thought of. I guess I will continue as the part time office worker for now and aspire to the future title of "The artist formally known as an office worker". Barbara P. I have been doing color reductive woodcut and only color reductive woodcut for around 6 years now. My first woodcut was a color reductive, and I've only done a handful of black and white prints. I just finished my brother's wedding invitations using ONLY 5 colors and was racked with indesicion over which color to leave out. You should try it though it is a process filled with surprises. I just looked at your web page and liked your women/birds images. When I have some spare time in between filing and day dreaming I am going to read some of the past posts from David regarding my making a living question. Bye for now, Bridget ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:09:40 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9835] Laser cutting. Dimitris said. >The 'Sacred tree' (a new version, the other one's gone to the museum of >'Holy garbage') will be created on paper (ink&pen), but it will be cut on >a laser cutter (much like a B&W printer but with a laser beam instead of ********************* Mmmmmm As 'owner' of this exchange I guess I have to comment. I would have preferred to do this on the sacred tree list but I will continue with the discussion here because I suspect that Dimitris may use these methods in a baren exchange and thus it is of interest to bareners. I queried Dimitris some time ago about his methods when he sent me his dragon print, as I couldn't see how he got the fine detail by hand cutting. Now it makes sense, its not hand cut, as I suspected. Personally I have a problem with this. Junin Toiro. Why do I have a problem with this? When I carve a plate, a large part of the character of the plate arises when I translate the drawing to matrix. The differing nature of the mark between an ink drawing and a drawing made with carving tools. This is a huge part of what I find attractive in a print and which in my opinion is why we make prints, not photocopies. To use a laser cutter brings the result into the arena of 'reproduction', rather than 'hand made'. As Barbara M says, its not 'art'. And as far as I am concerned the exchange is between 'artists'. Otherwise I might as well take my drawings to the local printery and pay then to run off a few thousand copies.... If it were up to me alone I would say 'no way' Dimitris and ask that you make a hand carved plate, or withdraw. But I will instead ask the other tree people to discuss this and cast a vote. On the one hand my hopes were for a set of _hand-made_ prints. On the other hand it may be informative for everyone else to see the results of this method of producing a print. Hoping I've made my point clearly and that it won't be misconstrued. Josephine ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:33:46 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9836] Re: Laser cutting. I agree 100%. It is not a "hand carved" print if laser cut. Homemade cookies are not homemade if bought in a bag at the grocery or a hand loomed piece of fabric compared to something I buy at a K-Mart. Pick your medium, I don't care, there has to be a line drawn somewhere that says "this is art, this is not". It is the difference between the sublime and the mediocre. IMHO, it is not "art" if it is not hand carved and hand printed. It is not anything I care to collect or honor. dan dew (how 'bout that, I got an opinion!) ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:38:01 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9837] swap shop all right, by my calculations, no more excuses! ha,ha,ha just kinda kidding. No exchanges due for awhile, where's all the swap shop prints? come on, as our fearless leader says,,, CUT, PRINT (then send 5 over to James in the Swap Shop). dan dew Tampa, FL ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:40:01 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9838] How to Write Effective Mailing List Email. Here's an interesting read that I picked up from another list. http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/tutorial_1999-12.shtml I particulary liked the suggestion that formats other than plain text mail should be turned off. Josephine ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:30:13 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9839] Photos from Kampala and Egg from Tokyo ... Greg wrote: > Oh dear. I'm smarting from those three question marks, Dave, and > the justified impatience implied in the word "redundant." Didn't mean to push Greg, sorry! No sarcasm was intended ... > You are perfectly within your > rights to wonder why you can't see anything. Although your _descriptions_ of the exhibition have been interesting, there is no question that without any 'visuals' for us to see, it has been difficult for us to share the excitement, and the sense that 'something is happening' over there. Whether that stems from our modern training from exposure to TV and illustrated reading material I don't know, but it is true ... Woodblock printmakers are patient people though (we have to be!), and we're willing to wait for your upcoming report in [Baren-Suji] (although we _are_ certainly hoping that it will be illustrated!) *** Meanwhile, here in Tokyo, Dave is wondering if having a digital camera ready-to-hand _is_ such a good idea. I posted a couple of photos of a 'laser' block last night for your perusal ... I got a little note in my mailbox this morning suggesting that I 'look again' at them. The suggestion was made that this block was not carved by laser but instead was created by sandblasting. http://woodblock.com/temporary/laser01.jpg http://woodblock.com/temporary/laser02.jpg The more I look at it the more I suspect that this is correct. It may be that some kind of 'mask' was placed over the surface of the wood, and the cutting then done by blasting ... Yes/no? Dave ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:10:35 -1000 Subject: [Baren 9840] Re: Photos from Kampala and Egg from Tokyo ... David Bull wrote: > ...I got a little note in my mailbox this morning suggesting that I > 'look again' at them. The suggestion was made that this block was > not carved by laser but instead was created by sandblasting. Yes, I think sandblasting, or more accurately, abrasive blasting. A fine, sharp abrasive is used as the cutting media on something this fine, not the usual silica sand. The blocks that I have seen cut by laser have distinctive even parallel lines in the background, and the wood in the cut areas looks dark and slightly charred. Also, the edges are sharper than those on your little block. Jack ------------------------------ From: James G Mundie Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:33:43 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9841] Booo! and other subjects Greg wrote: > James Mundie was also in that alcove, and was the only Baren membermore > frightening -- according to a public judging from self-portraits -- >than Horacio. Tee hee! Honestly, I don't think my print is all that spooky, but maybe I'm a bit too close to it. Mostly I have had comments like, "You look so angry!" A bit peeved? Maybe. Scary? Apparently! ;-D **** Dan asked: > why do we sign, date and well, you know,..... in pencil? Not pen, or > marker, or crayon, but good old #2. Why? I believe the reason for using pencil is that one wouldn't be able to print or 'fake' that. In effect, by signing in pencil you are verifying that this is the only copy of this print (not a reproduction of an actual print), and you -- the artiste -- have touched with your very own hand (at least with the pencil if someone else did the printing). The pencil mark is the guarantor of your honesty. *** and then Dave said: > Even the 'late Bull' is still learning his craft Jim! The point about > 'buying in later and getting a better deal' is very true though, but > doesn't it apply to every one of us? > > I hope so! Of course. I didn't mean to imply that you were the only one getting better, Dave! I only meant that your prints perhaps give a clearer indication of this phenomenon because you are continuing to print from the first blocks in your poets series -- and presumably will continue so to do long as your subscribers demand it (or until you really are "the late Bull"). In that case, the cutting on the early blocks is just as it was in the beginning (until they wear enough that you need to replace them), but the skill of the printer is much more advanced as time goes on. Future generations can track your progress as a _carver_ by looking at the poets' and courtesans' heads... what is your hairs per millimeter ratio these days? Sla/n agus beannacht, James Mundie Philadelphia USA ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:23:59 -0800 Subject: [Baren 9843] Re: Booo! and other subjects James Mundie wrote..... >I believe the reason for using pencil is that one wouldn't be able to Pencil is because it is archieval..... graphite will not change with time. >The pencil mark is the guarantor of your honesty. Not so...... There are examples of reproductions out there that were large editions and the pencil signature was done not by the artist.....no sir..... modern technology...... a computer and a plotter did the signing. Load the computer with an assortment of signatures and the these are fed randomly to the plotter...... I have seen proof to this ..... a print with two signatures. Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:34:44 -0800 Subject: [Baren 9844] Re: editions and stuff ... Kampala, wrote. > But it's Baren that has convinced me of the need for a website. >Learning how to create and maintain one is next on the agenda of >my ratio studiorum. Gregory So plan an extra day here Greg and I will take you through the steps of designing a web site. It would be helpful if you used a Mac..... which I'm sure you do. Anybody that writes as effectively and creatively as you HAS to own a Mac...... This is a serious offer. @ N/C Graham ------------------------------ From: "TSHACK" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:47:24 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9845] Corel Draw for those of you interested, I was able to buy Corel Draw/Paint 7.0 for about $90 from www.buy.com. current version is 9.0 ------------------------------ From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:12:01 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9846] RE: even darker ages... Hi, Dimitrius in Greece! Before I comment on the laser-cutting blocks, I want to apologize or something for the joke about the hermits. Some of my best friends are hermits, and I meant no offense. Also, I didn't mean to imply these are "arguments" (the punch line in the joke may have been misunderstood. Or, there's a little acid in my tone--to much work with etching, I guess. Regarding laser-cutting, I want to confess that I get a little icky feeling when the artist's hand is valorized to the level of defining what art is. I treasure the hands of people, more than art, I guess. So when it seems like these beautiful things (like the hands that rock the cradles in that old expression, rule the world) are linked to art definitions . . . I don't know how to say it. It's scary, somehow. Art is ineffible. My judging self is suspended by art. I am fooled, sometimes. I think there must have been a time, long ago, when a steel tool was introduced to replace a stone one, and the debate may have taken place: "Flint is art. Steel is man-made, therefore it cannot be an art tool." Another word for "argument" is lemma. Two lemmas is a dilemma. As in "head versus heart." Intent, I think, is important. To attach the criterion that the hand is important conjures up an image of someone helping a dying artist sign their last work in order to say, 'It WAS signed by her hand! And here's a death certificate, and I say it was her LAST HAND-SIGNED WORK!' So, I think if I do get to use a laser cutter someday (I have several images I can not realize because I lack the skill, so I do the best I can and don't show anyone; because there are more skillful cutters out there for hire). The consumer--not an art patron--can be very cold if an artist can't sign an affidavit that guarantees it was all "by the hand of the artist." I like the idea of an art patron who shares the intent that whatever we do is art, not a show for anyone and everyone to judge. Art patrons care about the long term value of art, so if work is bad, it will just disappear, I guess, from neglect. ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:06:22 -0800 Subject: [Baren 9847] Re: Photos from Kampala and Egg from Tokyo ... >The more I look at it the more I suspect that this is correct. It >may be that some kind of 'mask' was placed over the surface of the >wood, and the cutting then done by blasting ... > >Yes/no? > >Dave Definitely yes..... laser cutting does not leave the grain variations. There is a latex mask called "Buttercut" which is a pressure sensitive material that is layed on and cut away as required.... this protects the wood underneath. Turn on the sandblaster ... which is silica beads..... very expensive.... and blast away. A commercial sign painters sport. Not usually employed by or recommended for woodblock artists.... unless your lazy..... Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:14:56 -0800 Subject: [Baren 9848] Re: Corel Draw >for those of you interested, I was able to buy Corel Draw/Paint 7.0 for >about $90 from www.buy.com. current version is 9.0 Earlier this month Corel was giving away Wordperfect for the Mac I heard that they are dropping .... rumour has it..... the Mac line of products. If you are using a Mac I would be cautious about spending a dime on their product until it is known what direction the Company is heading. Graham ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:36:46 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9849] Re: Corel Draw You are correct, Graham, Corel is dropping their Mac support and upgrades. Unfortunately, WordPerfect is also on dire straits, but they went ahead with their Corel Office 2000 for the PC anyway. In any case, Corel 7 for $90 is a bargain since it is a complete line of graphics package, not just the draw and paint. Comes with all kinds of goodies including a tracing program (traces bitmap to vector), web page designer, file converter, desktop publisher/ presentations program, animation maker, chart program, thumbnail database and more clip art and photos than you will use in a life time. Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker Las Vegas Nevada USA http://www.printmakingstudio.com maria@mariarango.com mariten@lvcm.com <><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V11 #1027 *****************************