[Baren] the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Thursday, 27 July 2000 Volume 12 : Number1092 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:07:37 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10655] Re:--mortar and pestle First I want to thank Graham for the advice on storing the blocks. We don't have earthquakes in Ohio (no, I take that back, there was a little one that rumbled a bit a number of years ago). So I'm going ahead and keeping them on the shelves. Now, I have another question regarding the mortar and pestle used to grind up the dry pigments. I bought one for $10 as I did not want to use the food one I have in my kitchen. Will the cool colors and warm colors stain the bowl so that I will need more than one? * * Using the term "hand-pulled prints" or "press-pulled" seems to be the way to solve the problem between those Graham is calling reproductions, and what we all do. When we show our work, and when we sell our work, shouldn't that be in our information about it? If we consistently use that term, then that would educate our viewers (what do you call people who look at and maybe purchase your work-- lookers, buyers and prospective buyers?) The important thing here seems to be that people understand the process of the art and what it is they are buying or looking at. * * * > ..Something came into my small brain the other day that has > always been a struggle for me....maybe it's the old one "everything > has already been done". ...I find coming up with something new and > original exceptionally hard! A lot of my images comes from dreams, daydreams, what-ifs, and spiritual highs. They come from poems I'm writing, too. I think if you sit back with your imagination and ponder or if you just get really exalted about something, you feel a natural need to produce something from it--poem or image or both. That's how it works for me. The most difficult stuff I do is stuff other people ask me to do--posters for an event, etc. It's much more fun illustrating my mind's reaction to life. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:26:07 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10656] Re: --dreams > So when you say image come from dreams how do they arise, how do they > actually become part of your work? I'm going to answer this one, too. For instance, once I dreamed I heard a great rushing of sound from a distance and went to the door to see what it was. I saw my uncle (who in actuality had died) delivering a horse to me (a horse I didn't want) My uncle was on a sledlike slab being pulled very fast by the horse through mud. It stopped so suddenly in front of me, I knew this horse was for me. The scene was ominous, the horse was tired and thin from traveling such a long way, and my uncle didn't look very alive. In the dream I was saying no, pleading that I didn't want this, but I could do nothing but receive it. My knees went out from under me with fear. I went inside the house wailing with disbelief. I did a drawing of this horse, and the sled with my uncle as passenger, and it is a powerful sketch and one I will turn into a woodcut eventually. I usually don't draw horses, so this will be a challenge to make the horse of my woodcut, the very horse of my dream, but the image is indelible and I can interpret this dream as my need to accept what I knew was coming-- the certain and soon deaths of family and a friend in the last three years. I gave myself this dream as preparation. The strong images leave me with no alternative but to do a woodcut or drawing. I have already written the poem. Gayle ------------------------------ From: slinder@mediaone.net Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:18:29 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10657] Re: --dreams Gayle Wohlken wrote: > a horse ... My uncle was on a sledlike slab being pulled ..... Hi, Gayle, I'm fighting dragons with this exchange 6 print....I want you to know I'm not ignoring you. I am learning a lot! Expensive tuition.... aaargh! Your horse was pulling a 'sledge' or a 'stone boat'. Sharen ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:07:28 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10658] Re: ideas pwalls1234 wrote: > > So when you say image come from dreams how do they arise, how do they > actually become part of your work? Do you transcribe the dream color for > color, word for word, image for image onto the block and make it a reality? > Do you have dreams that show woodblocks being cut and printed and then > create them in this conscious realm? How long have you been using such > imagery? > Pete, I am a process junkie as I have said in the past. I love new ways of doing things and sometimes I get an idea and it takes me a long time to figure out how to do it. I do a lot of that "work" while I am asleep. A few years ago I had a dream about using gold leaf in my work, but how to get it on the print in fine lines? Believe me, many days, weeks and months of trial and error followed. I finally figured it out and if anyone want's the directions, mail me off list as I have listed the directions here in the past. I don't cut woodblocks in my sleep, possibly because it is pretty straight forward and I was a "regular" printmaker before this forum. I started doing woodblock so I could do the exchanges but never expected to get so hooked on hanga. It is a long learning curve technically so I have decided to do them just for myself and not show them. That has given me permission to take the time I need to get reasonably proficient. I willl never be a great carver as that is the hardest part for me, but I will be able to turn out a few acceptable pieces without those fine lines. So, my dreams really just seem like an extension of the days, if I have a problem I just keep working on it and sometimes wake up in the morning knowing the answer to it. I am sure many people use dreams, just not all of us can remember them. I think remembering them is learned. Sorry I don't have wild visions to report, just same old thinking that we do during the day! Barbara M ------------------------------ From: barbara patera Date: Thu, 27 Jul 100 08:22:30 Pacific Daylight Time Subject: [Baren 10659] Re:joining wood, etc. Want to thank Graham for the info.... this plywood is only 1/4" thick and it sounds as though joining pieces is not what I really want to do..... can see that buying larger pieces is the way to go. Darn! On the topic of inspiration.... I find"life" to be so wonderful/sad/funny/exasperating/unexpected, etc., etc. that I can not imagine running out of ideas.....every corner you turn, every book you read, every person you meet can open up new avenues of thought. My only trouble is having the time to explore all these possibilities and get them down on paper or sculpted in clay. Barbara P. ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:18:45 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10660] ideas Pete, I forgot to mention that I do make prints in my dreams, sometimes I try lots of new things or new ideas and if the work I try them for real, if they don't I never do them. I know I dream in color as how could I do work in black and white when all I use is color during the day? I know Dave is a great black and white proponent, saying you should just do black and white for a year or two. Well, he is younger than I am and I love color, so have no time to give a whole year to black and white. I have a show next May and am already dreaming about the imagry. At this point it will be all birds, a little abstracted. So I guess I do use the images I dream about in my work. My dreams are full of bird images along with the primitive images I usually use. It will be interesting to see if my mind can work out a compromise between the two while I sleep! Barbara M ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:36:33 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10661] COMING SOON >Geez guys - buy a baren! Believe me, the most portable, clean, usable >little tool a printmaker could have. Any kind of baren - Couldn't have said it better, Wanda. FLASH..... I have mentioned to the guys that were at Boot Camp about a new Baren, John Root (a participant) is developing. I have and am testing about 4 or 5 types and so far excellent is the word. An yes they work almost equal to the unit that Dave had at class. Dave's is the to $900.00(Can) job. They are better for some kinds of printing than the $500.00 unit I purchased two years ago. More supple and giving for a lovely results. So if you are thinking of going out to buy something ..... WAIT. John may have just the kind of Baren that will give you results like the "real thing". Yes I know...... how much? John will answer that. When finished working on prototypes he will be moving on the the costing department. I can tell you that it will be very reasonable and worth waiting for base on results verse cost ratio. ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:32:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10662] Metal rolling pin I know Julia Ayres has a metal rolling pin for sale. She uses it for monotypes. You can get to her site from http://communities.msn.com/PrintmakingLinks Hope this helps. Barbara M ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:49:38 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10663] Re: Either they are reproductions or they are prints? Greg Carter said: (Either they are >reproductions or they are prints.). I think my problem lies in that art is >so subjective and I really do not like people telling me it has to to one As you say "this simple little statement" troubled you. If and when time permits I will relate to you the findings of the National Gallery of Canada with regards to this "reproduction/print" confusion. You may not like it, but the fact are confronting us and we must be very clear on definition. We are the persons that can be diligent about hand made work. I must admit, that had I looked at the pictures that Dave posted, I would have seen immediately what he was trying to say with words. But his statement was confusing and not phrased as to be completely clear. .... for me at least. I will if you are interested send you a private post. Graham Oh,,,,, if only there could be body language in e-mails. ------------------------------ From: "Elizabeth B. Atwood" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:10:14 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10664] Inspiration In looking for inspirtion, I will quote my father....."Keep your pencil moving!" He was my first and best teacher of art......and purveyer of very profound advice. My pencil moves constantly while conducting business....sitting in on a lecture......and on the phone (conversations with some people are a gold mine of subconscious plottings)......quick sketching outdoors........pondering ideas in the studio. Always with a pencil in hand..... I find that mindless(?) doodling has so often turned into an unexpected grand design. Doodling on the computer with jumbles of color can produce ideas. Then one is "keeping the mouse moving." ElizA.....State O' Maine ------------------------------ From: Salsbury Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:49:27 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10665] Print vs reproduction Hello All, I think one of the key elements for the debate on print vs reproduction, with regard to the pieces David is offering, is time. They were printed at a point in time when there were no high speed presses reproducing thousands of prints at the whim of a publisher. They were printed individually by hand. Through out history reproduction has been a tool for learning. The Chinese and the Japanese traditionally push for perfection. When reproducing a masters work of art these cultures would accept nothing less than a work that could pass for the original as it would dis honor the master. These are original prints as the technique to reproduce them is by making the blocks and hand printing them. The work is being done by an individual artist one at a time. They are also a reproduction as it is using a previously produced image. For these reasons they are original pieces of art. Now I need some help as my head leaks facts from time to time. There is either a University or Museum, in Boston I think, that houses the greatest Chinese Water Painting collections in the world, or so they thought. It seems that they have very old,centuries in fact, very well done reproductions of Master artist from the earliest dynasties of China. Although they were copies, right down to the signature, they are still considered to be original art by students, and of great value in preserving the history of the masters. So I see time as the biggest factor to this debate. When did mechanical reproductions take over? A couple of hundred years from now, if there is only one poster type reproduction left of an image, will that be considered art and have extreme value? The other thing that does come into play is society and the parameters that we set and or accept. Gram: to answer you question on how I print, I usually use brushes and other objects to put ink on, or remove it from the Plexiglas plate. Each print usually makes four of five trips through the press to produce the finished piece. I have also done collagraphs where you gouge or cut into a sheet of Comtrex plastic, its a soft plastic. You can also glue things onto the plate for texture such as sand, cloth, etc. If I ever get my computer running again, I am using my husbands for email, I'll put up some photos. Sue ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:32:45 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10667] Re: rolling along & Ideas > How about using the Raucshenberg (spell?) at Black Mountain method and fire > up the old fossil fuel burner and get some real pressure on those blocks! Pete, Maria did the fossil-fuel printing job last year. She probably still has it up on her site. You know, you have to climb up the block gently - not peel out! :-) I saw a woodblock in the middle of the freeway last week (I'm just sure that's what it was, oban size) - now there's an idea, print it up - tape your paper down & place it carefully (and rrruuuunnn) in the slow lane. (70 mph is slow around here) Wanda Ideas? I've got way too many of them. You need ideas? Just e-mail me! :-) Dreams? Nightmares? Weird? Wacky? Serene? Green? You name it. ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:54:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10668] Re: prints Interesting stuff on real prints vs. repros vs. digital vs. photo vs. collagraph vs. monoprint vs. digitally enhanced vs. entirely produced by a third world native with no contact with civilization at all vs. vs. vs. vs. vs. Was Hanga not a reproduction method invented to distribute communication materials in the most efficient way? Efficiency to the point where the division of labor was established to assure not only quality but also mass-quantities of the product so that it would be available to everyone? Were they called prints then? Weren't the European woodcuts and engravings merely a method of illustration for mass-production of books and other printed materials? Were those prints? I admit I'm the slightest bit tired of the infighting amongst printmakers and the every going debates in so many forums: "mine's a print, yours isn't," so here is my TONGUE IN CHEEK two bits: I propose that we not only make a distinction between hand-pulled prints and reproductions, but that we also start discriminating between ourselves in other more subtle ways in order to once and for all arrive at the answer to the question: What is a print? Or, more to the core of the argument: What isn't a print? At the end, we could have a million groups of exactly one member each, who discriminates and feels superior to all other members of any other groups that choose to erroneously call themselves: PRINTMAKERS! Baren has around 200 members, happily making prints. Anyone using the computer for anything other than e-mail and paying their bills through Quicken, is automatically out of the forum and cannot consider their output prints in any way. Especially those who dare play around with PhotoShop, even if just to scan a drawing and reverse it or blasphemously lighten or darken it before spitting out hanshitas and kyogos right out of the laser printer. Oughta be ashamed of yourselves. If you print with oil-based inks (referred to as oily-kids-stuff) that could be a major discriminating factor, both in value and merit. Never mind the rich European tradition of printing with oil-based inks on non-Japanese paper (I will get to the paper in a minute). If you exclusively print with oil-based inks, you're out of here! Print? HUH! Baren now has around 100 members. Now, if you print with water-based inks, but they are prepared and bought in a Brand-tube, that also is different than printing with pigments and rice paste. Of course if you print with pigments but they are already in suspension and you do or do not use methyl cellulose instead of rice paste, also different in value and merit. So anyone that prints with some pigment other than pure powdered pigment and mixes it with anything other than rice paste is automatically banned from Baren and their output can only in the most marginal sense be considered a print. Baren now has about 50 members. Let's move on to the methods of printing, such as using a real baren versus a synthetic cheapie, versus a mechanized device known as a press. Geez, with all that talk of rolling pins and wood-mushroom barens and home-made imitation kiddie-playing-around stuff, there are so many printing instruments that I better just simplify this one: Barens are in, as long as they are hand-made in the Japanese tradition. Anything else is out, even the GMC Jimmy. Baren now has about 20-30 members, hard to tell because of the exclusivity clause that dictates that you not only follow ALL those rules, but that you exclusively and religiously follow ALL those rules. Shall we talk about paper? Gosh, this one is really easy! Hand-made HOSHO only, and only from a certain distributor in Japan, and ONLY if you size it yourself. Tools? Japanese made knives and chisels only, and only sharpened with water-stones. Baren now has 4 guys scratching their heads wondering where everyone went. That's okay, more peaceful this way, no? Wood? Cherry. Brushes? How could I forget...only the finest horse-hair brushes manufactured in Japan shall be used in the creation of a REAL PRINT. And you must soften them on a real shark-skin and by hand, so I guess even Dave's out. HELLO!!! Where did everyone go? Hello?! Anyone left out here...here...ere...ere I'll be in the studio making multiple imagery achieved by cutting a block of wood and placing a piece of paper on the inked raised surface of the aforementioned block. What comes out is a piece of paper with an image on it. Let's see, what shall I call this? Health to all, Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Image Maker Las Vegas Nevada USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com <><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "Bridget Henry" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:34:11 PDT Subject: [Baren 10669] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1091 Hello all, Whenever anyone asks me the age old question "Where do your ideas come from?" I'm tempted to give them a Dr. Seussean answer- Down the road from my house there is a tree called the berrenbaum tree, in the branches of the berrenbaum there grows a large delicious fruit that if you open carefully you can find ideas worthy of ingestion. I find it interesting that I always have about 3 ideas in mental storage, and another doesn't come along until I am finishing the current print I am working on. I guess it is my minds way of protecting itself from image implosion. I rarely lack ideas for future images what I struggle with is the technical ability to bring them forth. I guess others have the opposite problem of allot of technical ability but few ideas Bridget Henry ------------------------------ From: "Ittai Altshuler" Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:22:37 +0300 Subject: [Baren 10670] Where is the best place to publish a new site ? Hi Friends At last i am on the adge of publishing my new site which is basicly art = site .Which option i got which is the best with payment or without it. Ittai ------------------------------ From: Chris BeGell Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 10671] Re: prints - --- Maria Arango wrote: > collagraph vs. monoprint vs. digitally enhanced vs. > entirely produced by a > third world native with no contact with civilization > at all vs. vs. vs. vs. Thank you Maria! I was about to ask if I should sign and number my prints or not, but then I remembered I print lino-cuts on machine made rice paper with a peice of cove molding as a baren, so I guess I'll keep doing what I do and not worry about it. I have to say I do enjoy reading these discussions, and I think that, to an extent, they are necessary. Recognizing and appreciating differences is the foundation for genuine tolerance, so keep 'em coming. And since I've now taken up a quarter page, and threatened my status as a lurker, I should introduce myself: I do do lino-cuts as I said above, and also woodcuts in pine, I use waterbased inks, and(horrors!)I'm self taught. I've only been doing prints for about a year, and am still learning new things and experimenting. My scanner is out sick, but I hope to have some prints to show soon. Thank you all. ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:09:18 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10672] Re: prints Maria writes: "...And you must soften them on a real shark-skin and by hand, so I guess even Dave's out. HELLO!!! Where did everyone go? Hello?! Anyone left out here...here...ere...ere" Maria, I think you are been a bit rough and unjust on Dave. I do believe he uses a sharkskin and softens his own brushes.........so that's not the out for him.....but because he admittedly does copies of old masters instead of only orignal work......he must also leave Baren....go!!! Maria's tongue in cheek post reflects in a way on a discussion/proposal back a while here in the Baren forum about creating/assigning a scale system for describing the creation of our prints. Where a numerical value would be assigned to a print by the artist based on his/hers technique. Under this classification a number of variables would be taken in consideration to facilitate a categorization of the work........hand vs press, original design vs copy, water vs oil, power tools vs hand tools, etc, etc, etc......the scale in itself would not reflect on the quality or value of the work, but only to define and describe it's creation. Julio ------------------------------ From: Artsmadis@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:14:57 EDT Subject: [Baren 10673] Re: Where is the best place to publish a new site ? Ittai--- You should check with your internet service provider to see if it offers free web space for your web site. Also there are many other free web providers and many that you pay for. Marias site has a section on how to get on line at: http://www.printmakingstudio.com/getonline/getonmysite.html also here's a free web provider review site: http://fwpreview.ngworld.net/ Darrell ............... Artsmadis http://members.aol.com/artsmadis/index.htm.htm 60 pages so far ................ ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:31:42 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10674] Re: prints > Maria, I think you are been a bit rough and unjust on Dave. I do believe he > uses a sharkskin and softens his own > brushes..... Nix him, I say, he dares put a shark-skin on a plug-in-go-roundie-round-mechanized-device so as to save his strength, out! ye blasphemy!! And is it real shark? Or a cat-fish with pimples? Huuuuuhhhh???? Welcome! Chris and other lurkers; welcome to Baren, the place for all. Anyone with sick scanners or malformed computing devices may send me stuff such as pictures and other imagery and I will scan and post in the Invited Artists Gallery, where all are welcome. Mailing address is on my website under Meet the Artist. Just another friendly free service from a fellowette Bareneer. NO, I have not been drinking... Ittai, try http://www.tophosts.com and browse the best in the land. Or go to http://www.burlee.com and tell them I sent you ($12.95/mo, unlimited space, e-mail, ya-dee ya-da-ra-da etc etc.). Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Woodcut Score = - 3 Las Vegas Nevada USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:58:48 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10675] Re: Let's do it again ... > >So they are both. Just like the surimono print you watched me make last >month, they are prints, and they are reproductions. > >Dave Thanks for the clearification. I would not call them reproductions .... they deserve better. I like Gayle term..... "hand pull" or in our case "hand burnished" I will state again that we surely need clear definitions so the John Q, Greg and myself understand exact what we are talking/writing about. Graham ps You saw my explanation to Greg re not looking at the pics. ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V12 #1092 *****************************