[Baren] the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Tuesday, 8 August 2000 Volume 12 : Number 1107 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10878] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1106 paper Wanda, thanks for the suggestion for using Basingwerk. I'd have to see how thin it is, though. I like paper you can see through a little and I doubt Basingwerk would be the kind I want. I prefer the Japanese papers. I like to see what's happening as I burnish, and I just plain like the look of thinner papers. I feel more encouraged to try the Okarawa paper now that the spotting could be nothing more than a storage problem. Dave, those photos about the bamboo sheath and what side to use are very informative. Thanks for showing us, and that would indeed make a good encyclopedia entry to go under the baren category. I go to the encyclopedia often to study. Sarah, I went to that Hiromi Paper website http://home.earthlink.net/~hiromipaper/index.html and downloaded about 22 pages of their stock descriptions because I like the information on how each is made and how it is used. I printed it out so now I have this as a guide for when I take my trek down to Kent to an art supply store that stocks a lot of Japanese papers and other special papers. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:44:38 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10879] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1106 >Mike wrote: > > Back on the takenokawa fiber issue -- OK, let me be sure I've got this > > straight... The stuff I get is smooth and shiny on one side, like the > > outside of a piece of bamboo, and fibery and veiny on the other side. > >Difficult to talk about these things in only words! Here are a few >photos that show what I was trying to explain ... > >http://woodblock.com/temporary/barens/barenskin.html > Thanks -- yeah, we're talking about the same material, and we know which side is which. Next time I cover a baren, I'm gonna do both sides -- see if I have any different results -- the photo of the finished product looks like the effect is the same regardless of which side is attacked... Thanks so much for the input and assistance! I have a strong feeling that the Okawara paper is just fine to use, and will not deteriorate any more or less than other 'archival' papers. Just my feeling, though. Mike Lyon Kansas City Mike Lyon mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10880] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1106 At 10:00 PM 08/07/2000 +0900, you wrote: >Mightn't the >residual oil left in the paper start to 'go off' after time? > > >Dave You know, I'm not too certain how that all works. Camelia oil is vegetable oil, too, and it does seem to link-up (and become plastically stable) over time, but not nearly as quickly as linseed oil. I know that linseed will rot canvas -- that's why painters use glue &/or gesso -- to separate the oil from the support. The oil from the baren doesn't usually want 'go in' to the paper because the water content of the paper doesn't 'like' the oil. But with dry paper, I imagine the paper would take in a significant amount of oil with eventual problems. Some of my older works on paper have suffered from dampness and show considerable 'foxing' similar to the photos of your print. I also see my messy fingerprints on some of the older paper (not similar to your print -- but caused by oil). I sure talk a lot for somebody who's 'not too certain', eh? Mike Mike Lyon mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:17:27 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10882] Re: takenokawa ... >http://woodblock.com/temporary/barens/barenskin.html The back of the bamboo sheath is almost black.... Can you explain? >long-term effect on the paper from a vegetable oil. Mightn't the >residual oil left in the paper start to 'go off' after time? Ha ha..... when you use a burnishing sheet this is not of concern. Also the amount of oil use (one drop) spread over a 5" disc and wiped of with a tissue before use ..... done about every 20 or 30 burnishings ..... surely could not "go off" Devil's advocate...... Graham ------------------------------ From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:33:23 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10883] Animal, mineral, vegetable The FRONT of the bamboo sheath takenokawa needs to be softened, not the back? I've seen it done on the veiny back so often!!! As I rember there is more than one kind of Okawara paper, not all handmade. Also, Mike, others, if you don't have camelia oil, try mineral oil. Doubtless not as perfect, but it won't go rancid like vegetable oil. If vegetable oil is made from vegetables and baby oil from babies, what is camelia oil made of? ;-) April Vollmer 174 Eldridge St, NYC 10002, 212-677-5691 http://www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:31:55 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10884] vegetable oil. Mike wrote..... >You know, I'm not too certain how that all works. is vegetable oil, >too, and >it does seem to link-up (and become plastically stable) >over time. Thanks for this mike.... I was going to phone Noboru Sawai today to check. I recall him saying that olive oil (I think) was OK for the task. They want a kings ransom for Camelia oil here...... Graham ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10885] Re: Animal, mineral, vegetable Vollmer/Yamaguchi wrote: > > The FRONT of the bamboo sheath takenokawa needs to be softened, not the > back? I've seen it done on the veiny back so often!!! heeheehee - this thread reminds me of a friend who just could not make people understand when she was talking about her pasture gates: the "back gate" was the gate to the back yard. The "middle gate" was the gate between the back yard and the lot in front of the barn. The "side gate" was the gate into the south sheep pasture & the "other side gate" was the gate into the north pasture. There were about 10 gates, though, so it was difficult to see just which gate she meant. Now - as the bamboo sheath grows on the bamboo cane (timber?) the outside of the sheath is the spotted side, right? And the inside (up against the bamboo) is shiny & silky & not spotted. Correct? And the outside/spotted side is what some of you are calling "veiny" and "fibery". Correct? I'm sorry, but I'm ROTFLOL! Then the outside/spotted side (on the tree) is tied on the baren so the spotted side is the burnishing surface of the baren itself. So, the spotted side is the outside on the tree & on the baren. Right? A new friend from Yugi's Japanese Woodblock class has timber bamboo growing in her back yard. She brought some sheaths for us to see. Barbara made a valiant effort at recovering her baren, but the sheath (or takenokawa) was very coarse and had very strong veins & was very soft between the veins. So the sheath would tear very easily. I assume the takenokawa from Japan is particularly selected for suitability to baren skins. I haven't gotten brave enough to try to rety my baren yet. I'm very careful to turn the sheath often & treat it gently (when not being used). But, I'm sure I'll have to do it one of these days, anyway. It's getting way too flat - so I guess the hand-writing is on the wall. Wanda ------------------------------ From: slinder@mediaone.net Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:34:13 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10886] Re: Animal, mineral, vegetable Wanda wrote: > Then the outside/spotted > side (on the tree) is tied on the baren so the spotted side is the > burnishing surface of the baren itself. So, the spotted side is the > outside on the tree & on the baren. Right? > Wanda Hiawatha wrote: He killed the noble Mudjovikis. Of the skin he made him mittens, Made them with the fur side inside, Made them with the skin side outside. He, to get the warm side inside, Put the inside skin side outside; He, to get the cold side outside. That's why he put the fur side inside, Why he put the skin side outside, Why he turned them inside outside. Sharen ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:01:06 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10887] smoothing takenokawa Regarding the thread of this subject. Mike mentioned rubbing the back of the bamboo husk to do the smoothing. I piped in thinking maybe there was something to this. Well I just tried one..... anybody want a chewed up bamboo skin? What happens is the silky smooth backing is easily torn or scuffed off the sheath. It sure did not work..... have you ever had trouble with this Mike. Graham ------------------------------ From: Blouin Danielle Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:50:27 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10889] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1104 Hi Mike, I did the same thing as inside the leaf, I took the information in the Yoshida book. It was well smoothing the fiber. Do we are wrong????Au plaisir, Danielle ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:45:43 +0900 Subject: [Baren 10890] Re: Back to front ... April wrote: > The FRONT of the bamboo sheath takenokawa needs to be > softened, not the back? The job of crushing the fibres is done on _both_ sides. Here are three photos of Gosho-san ('The Man') putting on a baren cover: http://woodblock.com/temporary/barens/gosho_process.jpg In the first shot, he is stretching the moist skin to make it wider (so that it will shrink down tightly). In the second shot he is rubbing the inner surface of the skin. In the third he is doing _vigorous_ rubbing on the outer surface (the one that will contact the paper). The photo doesn't show this - but I've seen him use _both_ hands to grab the scissors at this point, and really _smash_ that thing flat. As for a couple of other 'authorities': the Toshi Yoshida book doesn't mention which side, but the photo shows rubbing on the outer surface. The Hiroshi Yoshida book shows no photo but says '... from both sides across the fibre ...'. Relax gang, we're _all_ correct! *** Mike wrote: > The oil from the baren doesn't usually want 'go in' > to the paper because the water content of the paper > doesn't 'like' the oil. It works both ways ... the oil on the skin also repels the water from the paper. Without it, the cover of the baren can pick up moisture from the printing paper, and start to become loose and soggy. As far as which oil is best, I have no way of knowing what any particular substance is going to do to the paper over a period of centuries, so I simply stick with the one that I know was used 'way back when', and which doesn't seem to damage the print ... camellia oil. *** Experimentation is recommended when one is trying to stretch traditions, to break new ground, and to do new and interesting things (this is most of you I think), but when one is simply trying to reproduce the older prints as well as one can (this is me ...), then it is obviously best to stay as close as possible to those original techniques. So take what you want from the traditions ... and blend in a good amount of 'I Do it My Way' ... Dave ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:42:18 -1000 Subject: [Baren 10891] Re: vegetable oil. > >You know, I'm not too certain how that all works. is vegetable oil, > >too, and >it does seem to link-up (and become plastically stable) > I was going to phone Noboru Sawai today to check. > I recall him saying that olive oil (I think) was OK for the task. Although I'm not sure why, not all vegetable oils react the same. In Japan, camelia oil is also used as a protective oil on woodworking tool blades and on Japanese sword blades along with clove oil, which also seems to not cross link. That would suggest that clove oil would also work well on barens, and make your prints smell nice too! Might even keep the bugs away! Sometimes camilia oil and clove oil can be found at drug stores for a whole lot less than the Japanese sources. Jack ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V12 #1107 *****************************