Baren Digest Monday, 30 April 2001 Volume 15 : Number 1405 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gillyin Gatto" Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:39:05 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14282] language usage/ respectful behavior on Baren/paper rolls hello to bareners i personally am not trying to "beat-up-on" Alan or anyone... i think we need clarity on how we speak to each other and all this is, as always, IMHO..... the point of the ' public display' as Garth called it is to let every barener know that sexist language is not appropriate to use in talking about the how of woodcuts-which is what i am most interested in also and the purpose of our forum..... the comment was made publicly- so the response was also . it is not appropriate to put women down intentionally or otherwise. if someones does not know they have done this, then it is up to us, as women, to tell them. i believe he was told in a kind way if we dont speak out publically when that happens, then the assumption is, that it IS ok ... actually i never read the comment, as it was in the context of something i was just skimming - the only way i knew of it was Wanda's reply, so i was glad that she made it.what IS the moderator's job , if not to make sure we keep it on the up&up ? i dont believe it is" violent" to let someone know that what they are saying is sexist and demeaning -it is simply informing them . it is hard to believe, really, that one could be living on the same planet as the rest of us, and not know that we as a society have supposedly raised our consciousness enough to consider sexist language inapproprite in any context.but if they- he or she- truly do not know , i feel they should be told right up front and out in the open. it is not a question of right /wrong or righteousness , it is about self respect, and respectful behavior towards others. not to call a person on it, is to condone it . no one has asked for more apologies , only thanked Alan for the one he gave as a woman who lived thru the 60's-70's-80's as each so called minority group struggled (and still struggle) to get simple rights and respect, one might well ask -how many times do we have to call men on their sexist behaviour before they finally stop? thanks to Alan for the butcher's paper suggestion -one can probably even order it from a farm supply or hardware catalog other useful paper that can be had almost free are rolls of newsprint i buy the ends of rolls from a local newspaper printer for 14 cents a pound they are 3 feet wide and invaluable for proofing and many other uses-gillyin machias maine usa ------------------------------ From: barebonesart Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:30:26 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14283] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1404 To whomever brought up the Bosnias of the human spirit and how to get out of them. We just go and we're gone and we don't look back. (The collective we - not the royal -) I haven't had time to try out waterbase roll-up ink for the transfer of image, however, I see no reason, theoretically, that it wouldn't work. It could then be washed off the blocks with soap and water and the block would be free to use with the transparent-pigment-in-rice-paste inks. I have used this method with oil based inks for prints using 10 - 12 blocks with perfect registration - the only time I've mis-registered it was an operator problem, not a block problem :>) I advocate using the print paper to transfer the image as it considers the stretch of the paper you're using and accounts for it, versus using waxed, tracing, butcher or newsprint. But, to each his own - - these are all good ideas to try. Ultimately, we'll all use whatever works for us. (collective us - not royal) Whooooo boy. Sharri ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:50:16 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14284] Hanga transfer Anyone interested in learning the traditional method(s) of transfering key block to color blocks in Hanga - just go to: http://barenforum.org and go to the library. Several of the books there explain the method in step-by-step detail. Along with a lot of other excellent information if you are interested in learning the Japanese woodblock methods. I think transferring in the traditional western printing way - over to the 2nd 3rd.....however many blocks, even with roll-out waterbased ink would be difficult. The ink would smear all over the place while you are trying to carve. The (almost) traditional way I use is this: 1. carve image on key block 2. ink up key block with sumi/rice paste (including the carved-in-the-block registration marks) 3. Print up several (more than you need) sumi paper prints. Or whatever kind of paper you like to use. I've tried computer paper, but it wrinkles & is difficult to peel of the back layers without removing everything. 4. Glue the key block prints face down on the fresh wood blocks with whatever glue you prefer - I've used gum arabic, rice paste, & heard "yes" paste & white (Elmer's) glue suggested. 5. Let dry & start carving. If you try to carve before it is dry, the paper will just stick to your To & slide & tear all over the place. Don't ask me how I know! :-) So, you are carving your image *and* your registration all into the same block. You can't believe how accurate it can be, until you try it. And I do print both hanga & western style & love both! *************************************************************************************** Oh, and the royal "we" - hereafter I would like to be referred to as "Queen Wanda". Haaahhahhahaha! Don't pick on my use of the English language unless you want me to start correcting your spelling. :-) Wanda ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:02:20 EDT Subject: [Baren 14285] Re: Hanga transfer my spelling would keep you busy for a long time. ??? can you print Japanese method after you have printed a block using oil based ink? Does the block get cut differently for the Japanese method?? john ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:21:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14286] Re: Hanga transfer FurryPressII@aol.com wrote: > > my spelling would keep you busy for a long time. Nah, your spelling doesn't bother me a bit. You *communicate* - it doesn't require perfect spelling. > ??? > can you print Japanese method after you have printed a block using oil based > ink? You know, someone asked me this just the other day. And quite frankly, I haven't tried to print an oil-base block as hanga or vice-versa. I'll have to try it & see. I usually have a certain look in mind as I make the blocks & that determines whether it gets printed as hanga or as oil-base. I know there are several printmakers on here that use both methods - I'm sure someone has the answer to your question. I don't know why it wouldn't work both ways - as some people seal their hanga blocks with spar varnish & that is sure oil-based. I don't seal mine, as the absorbency of the wood seems to make it easier to print with the water-based pigments. > > Does the block get cut differently for the Japanese method?? Mine don't. I would like to hear about other's experiences, though. Wanda ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:44:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14287] oil and water do mix The answer John, is yes, you can print water based ink over a block that has been printed with oil based ink. If you have trouble getting the waterbased ink to stick, you may have to sand the top of the block with 600 sandpaper to open it up. The reason hanga prints as it does is the block absorbs a certain amount of water and then stays at this absorbed state through the printing. If your block was too saturated with oil, it might not work, but I have used blocks both ways with no trouble. I have not printed hundreds of copies, that might make a difference when going from oil to water. Of course the easy thing is to just plan it to be a waterbased block, makes everything go together with no extra stress. The only difference in cutting is blocks that are printed with the hanga method are cut deeper. The oil lays on top with an oil based ink and is usually rolled on so there is little danger of getting ink into the crevices unless you are a using too much ink. With hanga you are putting ink on the block with a brush and it is getting down in the cuts. If they are too shallow the paper will pick up the ink. Trial and error for me, I learned after the first one that areas that were very open on the plate needed to be pretty deep. Somewhere in the encyclopedia there is a measurement for this. If you haven't read it, go there and start. Once you get all that helpful info, you will be better armed but have more questions. Then ask away. Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: Alan Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:25:34 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14288] Re: oil and water do mix John wrote..... >can you print Japanese method after you have printed a >block using oil based ink? Barbara wrote..... >The answer John, is yes, you can print water based ink over a block that has >been printed with oil based ink. If you have trouble getting the waterbased >ink to stick, you may have to sand the top of the block with 600 sandpaper >to open it up. Sanding is only part of the answer.... Rice paste or cornstarch paste is needed. Depending on how much oil based ink is on the plate will determine the need to use sandpaper. Without paste the water base ink will likely still bead. Oh, and always use a sanding block with a padded surface with this process. You would not want to accidentally score the plate with a sharp corner of the sanding block. And by the way, a nice response Queen Wanda from the Oregon.... (<: Is my apology accepted... you never acknowledged. Gillyin wrote..... >i personally am not trying to "beat-up-on" Alan or anyone... And neither was I..... (<: Like the use of Fisherman, Chairman, old words that crop up and not in any was meant as a put down...............The phrase I used simple means one big SOB of a Print, nothing more and nothing less. I would like to get dialogue on my question regarding aboriginal expropriation, which for some reason seemed to upset Dave Bull, it would be grand. Here in Canada it is a real contentious issue and absolutely not acceptable by the establishment and certainly not by the native population. To use the traditional designs or using the folk lore in writing for monetarily gain is doomed to failure. To even use a totum pole in a painting is risky. I am quiet curious about why this is not the case in Japan and for that matter in other countries. Are we the only nation that is up tight about the expropriation? Alan PS For those interested I am having a web site done. Look for it soon. ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:39:11 EDT Subject: [Baren 14289] Re: oil and water do mix On the use of other images in printmaking? Before the modernist period in the west printmaking was mainly used for reproductive uses as it was part of the printing industry. All most all wood engraving before 1880 was of a commercial nature. Even earlier woodcuts and other printing matrixes were used to reproduce paintings for the commercial market. Sometimes it was with the artists permission and sometimes not. An example of it's use without permission goes all the way back to Albrect Durers time In Durer"s time you could use another's artist's image but not his trade mark or signature. This was the key issue as the method of study at the time was to redo the masters work as a form of study. It was only in the period of modern art was "originality" the key thing. I feel they through out the baby with the bath water with that practice as we can learn more from the study of the techniques of the past than can be learned by ignoring them. The skill of a formschnider wood cutter or Japanese wood carver can only be learned by practice cutting hundreds of blocks and it becomes second nature. The modernist art historians say the skill has been lost I think not they just aren't looking under the manhole cover to find it. The point is to learn the craftsmanship of the past and to put it to use in todays time frame. What ever that might be. Some Japanese prints have taken this path and some are following the older methods and subject matters which is as acceptable as any other path. To me the biggest problem in American art education esp on the collage level is that they place way too much emphasis on being on the cutting edge of originality and way too little effort on learn the correct craftsmanship of the process. john ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:55:34 EDT Subject: [Baren 14290] Re: Lyons in Savannah Hi Y'all, Here I am in Savannah and wondering if there are any Bareners in these parts. It was great to meet you and share info in San Francisco and NY. And now?.... Carol Lyons of Irvington, NY ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest v15 #1405 *****************************