Baren Digest Tuesday, 1 May 2001 Volume 15 : Number 1406 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maria Arango" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:24:46 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14291] appropriation can be good charset="iso-8859-1" On the appropriation thing: There are vast cultural differences on using images from diverse sources. There is some push here in SW USA to cease using Native American images in art, especially when the image is of religious significance. But artists all over the Southwest, not excluding (and especially) Native American artists, use these images in their art currently to satisfy the appetite of audiences. I think another vast difference in using these images is their source. As I understand it, printmaking in early Japan was really "printing," that is, a form of widely distributing illustrated literature. Although the images "belonged" to the masters who created them, the purpose of those images was to reach as wide an audience as was possible. Re-cutting and restriking those images today seems to ME to venerate and perpetuate that purpose in modern times, not conflict with it and much less offend or insult the original. As far as Dave's work, everyone that has been here in the list for a while knows that the Japanese respect him enough to have issued him an invitation to the Imperial Palace for the purpose of honoring him. Hardly seems like they are offended by his masterful craftsmanship. In 'Merrica' and Europe, many a modern artist has taken the practice of using images from the past in their work. In today's "assemblage" art culture, seems like recognizable imagery from both popular and artistic sources creeps into the art of the most respected modern artists. In the past, the instances of borrowing are numerous without any apparent derogation. Examples are the numerous versions of the Laocoon and David that have reached modern times precisely because they were appropriated and replicated through the ages. What a loss for modern artists had they not! Las Vegas, Nevada could be considered the World's Capital of Modern Appropriation. WE (Las Vegas as a collective entity) have engaged world class art historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, architects and artists to create exact (and not so exact) replicas of Egypt, Venice, Rome, Greece, King Arthur's Kingdom, New York... All complete with statuary, life size Davids, pyramids and mummies, roller-coasters, the Statue of Liberty, live jousting matches, and so on. In the name of entertainment, yes, but millions of dollars went to hiring the precise world class authority for each of the tasks at hand. Perhaps appropriation is seen by some, certainly by the experts who contributed to the accuracy of the replicas, as a form of artistic/historical education and preservation of culture. Certainly the gazillions of tourists that will visit Las Vegas in the next few summers will learn a bit about Greek, Roman, and Egyptian art history. Health to all, Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "K Chvojka" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14292] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1405 Hello I have just recently joined this list and would like to introduce myself.  I have been printing for only a little over a year- having started with intaglio etching I switched to woodcuts to avoid the acid/solvents/grounds of the etching process.  I am finding that I enjoy working with the wood (although I can't say I like sharpening my cutting tools). From the couple of digests I've read this list sounds like it will be very informative but I'm afraid that I won't have much to contribute to the discussions. Kathy Chvojka in Michigan, USA ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:41:30 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14293] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1405 Welcome Kathy,..and anything you have or want to say about wood will be = appropriate. Ask a question. Ramble on about a topic only you are = interested in. Add your thoughts to others that have been posted. But = please don't be a "lurker". Enjoy the communication. Philip Hammond, OR USA ------------------------------ From: "eli griggs" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:55:12 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14294] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1405 Hi there: Welcome to the list Kathy! I believe that, even if you only ask questions, you are contributing to = the group in a valuable way. I'm pretty sure a lot of other people here = feel the same way. Most good dialogue starts with a question, so jump = right in. =20 What sort of tools are you using and what are you using them in: = hardwood, softwood, lino, plaster or Fimo? =20 How are you keeping them sharp now? Eli Griggs Charlotte N.C. USA http://www.geocities.com/eli_griggs/mypage.html ------------------------------ From: Alan Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:39:09 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14295] Appropriation John, All that you point is quiet true and an very well expressed. Please don't misunderstand me, I am in favour of using the masters work as a learning tool. I guess the operative words I used "Monetary Gains" is the key, which has come to infer that one is cutting or under minding the financial opportunities of the original "people", be it North American, Japan, or Austrailia, etc etc etc. To me the learning from The/Your elders is important. The ancestors of the imagery are the persons who feel they are wronged even though the originators have been dead hundreds of years. The conditions of copying when I went to school was ... yes copy, but don't sign it, and don't sell it. The question of how many times do you have to copy other work to become a master. Does one have to copy hundreds of images to achieve the means or can one achieve the expertise by concentrating on a few images and them apply this knowledge and skill to their own creation. I think a greater problem with the American/Canadian education is the funding cuts and therefore the lack of development and education of our youth. Now that is another subject.... Maria wrote..... >As far as Dave's work, everyone that has been here in the list for a while >knows that the Japanese respect him enough to have issued him an invitation >to the Imperial Palace for the purpose of honoring him. Hardly seems like >they are offended by his masterful craftsmanship. This is indeed an honour. There is another perspective on this custom that I am cognizant of. Often the presentation of foreigners to the "Imperial" is done to bring to the attention of the Japanese people that you had better get busy because here is a foreigner that is doing better work. It is a Japanese custom to motivate the people to higher levels rather than the elevation of the recipient of the honour. Also wrote..... >Certainly the gazillions of tourists that will visit Las Vegas in >the next few summers will learn a bit about Greek, Roman, >and Egyptian art history. I won't go there. (<: Sincerely, Alan ------------------------------ From: Sunnffunn@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:00:38 EDT Subject: [Baren 14296] Re: appropriation can be good I create from life or from my mind. I do not use copies of works from the past. I studied art. And the past was part of the studies. I look at art and the past is part of what I view. The past is part of me and who i am even if i am not appropriating art from the past as an image or a design. I love Picasso and use the cubist notions and ideas a lot, is that appropriation? I use techniques taught to me in school, is tht appropriation? Techniques are marvelous to know and to understand. Heart tho is the body of art. To be able to put oneself into the work, to be able to put feeling into what you do, now that is the art we need. I have such enormous respect for each of the talented bareners works i see. I have respect for Dave and his great abilities. Let history decide who is great and let each of us pursue our art in our special ways. I also think experimenting and going in new directions is as imortant as understanding the past. Marilynn ------------------------------ From: GWohlken Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:15:22 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14297] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1405 I tried water soluble ink on my block and using the NOT-waxy side (sorry, I didn't want to shout, but didn't know how to get your attention :-)) The waxy side didn't want to pick up the ink) of white freezer paper, was able to transfer the design very well onto five other blocks. I'm speaking of Graphic Chemical's water soluble ink (the sample I received from them). In fact, the ink is still tacky on the boards, so I have them outside drying until I get back from getting the crown put on my tooth, and I hope they'll be dry so I can start carving and printing for a June 1 deadline. Gayle ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:58:29 EDT Subject: [Baren 14298] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1405 Patience is one of the main things we have to learn from the masters of the past. Even if it is only waiting for ink to dry from a transfer. I could not do the work I do now when I was a young man as I did not have the patience to work for many hours cutting around the cross hatches, etc. Some of the things of modern times do not want to allow the learning of this most important of traits in my youth I could not spend a week on one block or two years on a block book. (for those of you who don't know a block book was a book printed with text and illustrations without moveable text like the Japanese books and the western ones before Guttenberg). How to put the feelings ones gets when the steel goes through the wood in just the right way. I don't have the words for that feeling I guress that is why i want to do it. john ------------------------------ From: Daniel Dew Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:31:05 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14299] Tomorrow is the day O.K. gang, tomorrow is the big day. My knee surgery begins at 7:30 a.m., not a total replacement, just a scope and clean and such, but still: ME NO LIKE PAIN! Exchange #9 is off in the mail, waiting on more to come for the Salon De Refuse. My home computer is on the fritz again, so sorry if I post in bad taste here, but I need help. I need the e-mail addresses for all those in the Salon De Refuse if possible. Kate, you're package arrived today! Well, wish me luck! dan dew ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:55:21 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14300] Re: Tomorrow is the day charset="iso-8859-1" Good luck Dan. It's much better after surgery than thinking about it to come! Bea bnj50@earthlink.net ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:55:06 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14302] Re: Chicago print fair, appropriation 04/30/2001 01:54:54 PM Welcome Kathy and all other new members..... I spent most of my Sunday over at the 4th Annual Chicago International Antiques & Fine Art Fair.....which in conjunction with PRINTS|CHICAGO brought hundreds of renown dealers to my back door. Concentrating specifically on Japanese hanga, I spent a wonderful afternoon viewing hundreds (probably thousands!) of master prints. More prints that I ever thought humanly possible to view & absorb......folder after folder of Hiroshiges, Kiyotoshi, Harunobu, Hasui, Saito, etc.....the prices...astronomical ! But all the dealers were very friendly and even after introducing myself as a printmaker allowed me to go through their folders and handle the stacks of prints. These were the real McCoy's.....no 20th century restrikes here! I met with Michael Verne from Cleveland who represents our very own barener from Japan, Daniel Kelly. Kelly's very (very!) large prints were an awesome sight to see. Michael also had prints on sale from one of founding bareners, Matt Brown. Matt, I'll be giving you a business call. Michael is a real nice guy and we share a common interest in coaching youth baseball. We chatted for quite a while and he autographed a copy of his book for me (Japan: As seen through the eyes of nine American artists") . We took a couple of photos. More later on a full report at the Baren website. Daniel, your wonderful "strawberries" print sold and was a real show-stopper ! Met Carolyn Staley from Seattle another well known dealer in fine Japanese prints. Almost bought a small sized Saito (darn prices!!!). Chatted about the current trends. Through their website, they have been selling the complete "Moon" series by Yoshitoshi (late 1800's)....wonderful to just hold these prints in my hands. More photos. One of the highlights for me was to see on display two very famous Goyo prints (Shin Hanga artist, early part of last century, one of the first to design work with Watanabe). I was so moved by these prints....no words....just complete total admiration. Price ? These were held not by a print dealer but by an international Asian Antiques firm, their only prints on display....bought for $20,000 a few years back......now on sale for $50,000 to $80,000 each........ Speaking of appropriation.....Quite a bit of work on display by foreign artists Bertha Lum, Lillian Miller, Keith and others... one gallery specializing on Miller's early work. Simply wonderfully done delicate prints. And....also on speaking with Jeanne Davidson (New York, specializes on sosaku hanga & modern prints...) learned that the Watanabe studio's/heirs are coming out with a new seal and are starting to recrank out the old blocks again!!!!! She had so many Saito's, Sekino's, Tokuriki's & Yoshida's on display that my head was spinning.....still is!!!! It sure was reassuring to know I have not been wasting my time here....on just about every print I could tell the artist by just looking at the style and coloring....I batted at least .750 against the Ukiyo-e prints...and close to .900 with the Shin-Hanga and Sosaku prints. Only the more obscure or modern artists eluded me. A few of the dealers were aware of the Baren forum.....and all I talked to knew of our skinny bearded guy in Japan doing reprints.....I will make a full detailed report for the web site once the photos are developed and scanned. Julio ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:27:47 EDT Subject: [Baren 14304] Re: Tomorrow is the day Good Luck on your Knee Surgery tomorrow., Dan Heres my e-mail address for Salon de Refuse artfulcarol@aol.com If you couldnt get my messge this AM it was that I will be travellling through Tampa area On May 13 and maybe we can meet ?? Carol Lyons ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:00:21 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14305] Re: Appropriation 04/30/2001 03:00:11 PM Since David Bull is probably sleeping at this time of day, I will take the liberty of thanking you for recognizing his talent and the fact that he has achieved a high level of skill unknown outside of the printmaking circles in Japan. To be considered as one of their own and to be allowed to participate at printmakers gatherings is certainly a unique and rare honour only reserved for a chosen few in traditional Japan. The problem you are having is understanding that David and his japanese peers do not see themselves as artists/designers...but rather as craftmen, simple highly skilled workers making prints for a living and following in a centuries old tradition...while in the process trying to keep the wonderful japanese hanga technique alive for future generations. Your second sentence I am afraid makes no sense to me. What are you saying ? that the japanese do not reward their own achievements ?....this in a society where the highest level of craftmanship and art are proclaimed & given "Living Natural Treasures" status (or such similar title), the highest honour possible. Your remark makes no sense, you must have other meaning in mind which elude me. Since you seen to have a great deal of knowledge on hanga and japanese printmaking perhaps you can introduce yourself and give us some detail on your background.Do you follow a specific theme in your art...animals, portraits, landscape, lighthouses ? Can't wait to see some of of your prints online...good luck with the website... thanks...Julio ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:38:32 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14306] Re: oops...more on Appropriation 04/30/2001 03:38:22 PM Sorry, left this part out of the previous post... When I speak of "...simple highly skilled workers making prints for a living and following in a centuries old tradition", I am just not speaking in generalities. Specifically, it was a well-known practice throughout the Ukiyo-e and the late 1800's Japan to use old images in new and creative ways. Not only publishers purchased and passed on old blocks to others in the business, but also the images were often replicated in different formats (paper sizes) to accomodate a different business need and the blocks altered and rejoined in alternative fashion. The poetry, calendar markings, dress details & coloring of the images were all fair play for alterations and the new publisher would then re-introduce the work in a new light and with newly carved seals and publishing marks. Of course I don't have to mention how often the master works of ARTISTS like Hiroshige, Hokusai & so many others have been recarved, reprinted and resized in the last 200 years by later day CRAFTMEN. There's a saying in spanish..... As bien y no mires a quien ! (Maria can translate). Julio ps. did not mean to "shout" just point out the difference between the two. ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:49:46 EDT Subject: [Baren 14308] Re: Appropriation I love the craftsmanship of the floating world then and now. You can see the effect of it in the modern prints from Japan. The West almost lost the kn owlage of printmaking. I respect all of the knowledge of those that came before me. There was a period in the western art were the elite of the art world rejected the need for the craftsmanship. All in the name of the "god" of originality one of the main weakness of American art education is the belief that things must be original even before the student know how to work in the media that is being taught. One of my other fears is the creeping in of censorship. I have been teaching my self the craft of the formschnider woodcutters, just as earlier I learned what I could about wood engraving. I esp. love the feel of wood under steel in either of these medium. I esp. understand the separation of the formschnider/woodcutter from the printer as was traditionally done in both the West and Japan. I am working on two books right now one is a reproduction of the text of a Passover Haggadot(the book read in the Passover service) with some of my illustrations as a block book, and the second work is woodcuts and wood engravings of money as art. I chose money as a subject for a lot of reasons the two main reasons are one for the viewer that the subject crosses all social and ethnic lines I cannot think of any other subject that is understood by as many people (except maybe sex), and one reason for me is that it is hard to do as now of the gov't agencies involved made the subject easy and I like a challenge. I will be sending some examples for the exchange part of the baren organization. john ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest v15 #1406 *****************************