Baren Digest Saturday, 2 June 2001 Volume 15 : Number 1440 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gregory Robison" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:06:52 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14635] Re: Greg's Post charset="iso-8859-1" Josephine: You may certainly 'bookmark' anything I have written that you find useful regarding collaborative projects, and I wish you the best of luck with them! On your point that you "would steer well away from religious material or biblical references", I'm sure that a lot of Bareners share your squeamishness about this. I take this opportunity to emphasize that we are approaching this project as artists, and as artists we should not feel compelled to steer away from any subject. Lynita: Thanks so much for joining this endeavor, deep breath and all! ------------------------------ From: "John" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:31:30 +1000 Subject: [Baren 14636] Durer charset="iso-8859-1" Jeanne We have The Triumphal Arch print in Melbourne and it is a wonderful print. The National Gallery of Victoria has an almost complete set of Durer's prints. The Arch is printed on many sheets of paper, the condition of the sheets varies so I think they may have been collected from different sources and reassembled I don't know how we got such a good collection of Durers work I think that I can say with some degree of certainty that The Roman Emperor Maximilion 1. was not an Australian but I could be wrong. John ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:57:09 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14637] Re: Greg's Post charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Greg, Glad to hear from you again. I would have loved to join a collaborative project with you and these other wonderful folk but for me it's a no for religious materials. Not squeamish just a different believer. Bea "On your point that you "would steer well away from religious material or >biblical references", I'm sure that a lot of Bareners share your >squeamishness about this. I take this opportunity to emphasize that we are >approaching this project as artists, and as artists we should not feel >compelled to steer away from any subject. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Dew Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:04:39 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14638] Re: Greg's Post This is getting interesting. Why can we have an exchange idea involving the occult, nudes and other ideas, which may be "squeamish" to me and others, but not one devoted to "religious" themes. Seems rather a one sided "freedom" when only one side makes the rules. I am all for any exchange involving the occult (an idea mentioned for #11), I will just choose not to participate. But I WOULD NEVER, repeat NEVER, not allow others to join or participate in such an exchange. Freedom of expression HAS to be a two way street, for both parties, or the word "freedom" has to go. IMHO, dan dew (See, I can get paasionate about something too. :-) ) ------------------------------ From: "Patricia" Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:14:51 +1000 Subject: [Baren 14639] Re: Durer charset="iso-8859-1" - ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:31 PM Subject: [Baren 14636] Durer Is he the one our prime minister has modelled himself on? Sorry to post off topic but I just couldn't resist. :-) Patricia. >I can say with some degree of certainty that The Roman Emperor > Maximilion 1. was not an Australian but I could be wrong. > > John > ------------------------------ From: "Patricia" Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:20:02 +1000 Subject: [Baren 14640] Re: Greg's Post charset="iso-8859-1" If religion became the theme would the expectation be that the work based on such a theme would relate to Christianiy? If the idea was all encompassing then those who identify with other belief systems could include imagery that reflected their beliefs. :-) Patricia. ------------------------------ From: "Gillyin Gatto" Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:24:56 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14641] catching up to exchange/collaboration ideas hello Bareners trying to catch up to all the ideas that have been tossed out about exchange #11 and Gregory Robison's gospel text collaboration idea was quite interesting Greg's discussion of the primitive and more complex types of collaborations was fascinating- i hope we continue to do both . a gospel themed collaboration is an idea that intrigues because early books were all woodcuts /engravings i would enjoy doing a piece and have one in mind-so i count myself in for submitting ,Greg great idea i like alot of the ideas- for #11 especially mysteries of the sea, nudes, cemetaries, music and haiku...if forced to vote for one i would pick the SEA but i would gladly try to sign up for any of these themes i am finding the exchanges stimulating and motivational my challenge is in working small as i prefer large carving but i am finding that i like the small work too more and more and since '95 have been consciously trying to do small pieces at first this was motivated by seeking more sales, but now it is also a pleasant challenge compositionly for newcomers to carving wood blocks , who may be shying away from tackling a large block- i maintain that it is actually easier to carve big--just more room to manuver the tools........but i AM enjoying the challenge of accepting that a piece will be a certain size before conceiving an idea very different for me who usually comes at it from the opposite direction- of finding a piece of wood i like first and then envisioning an idea for it the most recent ' found block' i carved just happened to be 15" long in an OBAN sized exchange -would that be considered too big ?if it had a small border? is the case 15 " or 16" ? also- are we wanting a vote for horizontal or vertical- i vote vertical this time... the UPS driver just pulled in with my brand new roll of Tableau paper from Graphic Chemical which reminds me about the archival discussion which i followed, but did not jump into i use Tableau almost exclusively for a myriad of reasons -it comes in40"wide roll - its relatively inexpensive - its made of hemp fiber which should last "forever" -it saves trees -it is simple, beautiful and strong my Tableaux story is that i make "hunter friendly" no hunting signs on tableau paper for posting my land they are a two color linocut- black with orange letters- saying CAUTION- HOUSES- KIDS- WOODCUTTERS- FARM ANIMALS- NEAR HERE- PLEASE DO NOT HUNT these are stapled to a board and the board affixed to a telephone pole or tree in the fall and last all winter just the bare paper like that, no plastic or laminating actually they have lasted two years and counting the ones that get heavy wind tear off at the staples and fall to the ground in the ice storms of winter but the paper itself still has integrity when i pick it up out of the ditch in april the posters that are in the woods and sheltered from wind are still up intact and bright-- tableau paper with oil ink in the woods..... when i have extra $$ for fancier paper i get some Hakusan from Aikos or some Sandera from David Sander -these are both warm whites while the Tableau is a cool white just like everything else in my life i like to keep it simple i am aware of a vast world of wonderful papers but only partake of it narrowly part of a voluntary simplicity... i have been quiet of late due a recurence of an old neck injury i have been resting when i would be writing the head weighs eight pounds and the neck is rimracked gillyin machias MAINE USA ------------------------------ From: Aqua4tis@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:31:17 EDT Subject: [Baren 14642] Re: Greg's Post >If religion became the theme would the expectation be that the workbased on such a theme would relate to Christianiy? If the idea was all encompassing then those who identify with other belie= f systems could include imagery that reflected their beliefs. i couldnt agree more why not approach this as artists ??? if you are ofanother faith approach it that way same with the occult some things we approach from the "inside" and some we approach from the "outside" im not a homeless person but i may do art concerning homelessness just my opinion georga ------------------------------- From: Aqua4tis@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:32:18 EDT Subject: [Baren 14643] Re: Gospels by the way greg id like to be included in this thank you georga -------------------------- From: "April Vollmer" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:52:40 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14644] The Floating and the Fixed charset="iso-8859-1" This week I visited the exhibition of Frank Lloyd Wright prints at Japan Society in New York, and attended a lecture on shunga by the art historian Timon Screech. I fear our list has lost its focus on moku hanga since Dave stepped back. I was reminded how compelling Ukiyo-e has been for our group in the past. Ukiyo-e is a style that is tied to its time and place, Edo and Japan of the 17th and 18th centuries; what we contemporary printmakers do is moku hanga, simply the technique of Japanese water base woodcut. The historic prints I saw this week were an inspiration from the past for contemporary printmaking. Frank Lloyd Wright seems to have made more money by dealing in Japanese prints than he did doing architecture. When he traveled to Japan to work on the Imperial Hotel he spent a great deal of time buying prints, and it is the vast quantity of prints that he brought into the U.S. that forms the basis of the ukiyo-e collections in Chicago, Boston, and New York. Japan Society had a nice display of his architectural drawings and a model of the Imperial Hotel, (destroyed in the sixties in the name of progress!). It outlined some of the reasons he was so fascinated with Japanese prints, and displayed many of his best prints, now in various collections. What struck me most about this show was the erotic nature of almost all the prints. Japan Society did not display explicit prints, yet all the women were doing something quite suggestive. 'Making Sushi' was a courtesan leaning over with a huge daikon radish in her fist, grinding it to little piles of shredded flesh. Utamaro's tea house portraits are exquisite textural displays, with soft, opaque glistening shell backgrounds, and the clear porous washi left exposed for the face and skin of the courtesans. Tender and vulnerable, you really appreciate the character of washi seen this way. So it was with great excitement that I greeted the Timon Screech lecture. http://www.jpnsoc.com/lectures.htm#lecture0530 He has written several books on Japanese culture, and one specifically on the erotic prints, shunga. He was a fabulous speaker, and his talk was about the transgressive and erotic center of ukiyo-e printmaking. Edo (old Tokyo) was a city of men. To centralize his power, the shogun required representatives from around the country to spend time in Edo. While some could bring wives, the majority came alone. Those who could afford to visited the Yoshiwara pleasure district, an hour boat ride north of Edo, those who couldn't, bought prints of the beautiful women there. These prints are commercial advertisements for prostitution, and created a self-aware fiction of the 'floating world', where everyone is beautiful, and willing, and the cherry trees are always in bloom. The evocation of this floating world includes many kinds of prints. (Actors, for example, often doubled as sex workers.) And the transgressions, not so obvious to the western eye, were all too obvious to the censors. Sumptuary laws dictated materials. Utamaro was manacled for 50 days for his suggestive print of the historic figure Hideyoshi. The print is not overtly erotic, but shows Hideyoshi visiting the pleasure quarters, his respectable wives dressed as courtesans. Timon Screech's lecture was about the friction between the 'floating' world of fantasy and the 'fixed' world of everyday life. It is the transgressive foundation of ukiyo-e coupled with the exquisite formal beauty of these prints that makes them so inspirational. April Vollmer www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: Artsmadis@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:06:15 EDT Subject: [Baren 14645] a century of american woodcuts Here is an internet exhibit with a lot of prints: http://www.artline.com/galleries/haslem/woodcuts/woodcuts.html Darrell ------------------------------ From: "Walters, Stephanie J. (Nevada Color)" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14646] RE: Gospels I would love to be a part of this, it sounds very exciting! ------------------------------ From: b.patera@att.net Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:23:19 +0000 Subject: [Baren 14647] Collaboration Hi Greg, Would like to be included in the collaborative effort. Barbara P ------------------------------ From: b.patera@att.net Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:27:28 +0000 Subject: [Baren 14648] Re: a century of american woodcuts Excellent site! Thanks Darrell. Barbara P. > Here is an internet exhibit with a lot of prints: > > http://www.artline.com/galleries/haslem/woodcuts/woodcuts.html > > Darrell ------------------------------ From: "Elizabeth B. Atwood" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:00:08 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14649] Robison Idea Looks like I'm in, also...with Greg's idea. I do wonder about the How of the juried part??? ElizA ------------------------------ From: Sunnffunn@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:23:04 EDT Subject: [Baren 14650] Re: Greg's Post I would love to contribute to a joint project. Biblical is to me also historical. I have no fear of that. I am just not sure with the coming changes in my residence , packing and moving and settling in half way I will have the time for another project. And I am the novice on the bolck here so maybe you should do one collaborative effort and if it succeeds think about doing more so more of us can in time have this fun. marilynn ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:53:53 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14651] Re: The Floating and the Fixed 06/01/2001 01:53:49 PM April writes: ".... I fear our list has lost its focus on moku hanga since Dave stepped back. I was reminded how compelling Ukiyo-e has been for our group in the past." and "....what we contemporary printmakers do is moku hanga, simply the technique of Japanese water base woodcut. The historic prints I saw this week were an inspiration from the past for contemporary printmaking." I also share April's concerns. While it is true that [Baren] or barenforum.org has grown beyond anyone's imagination...I too miss the old days where the meat of discussion centered around technique and woodblock printmaking discussions. Dave's One-Point lessons where always a time for rejoice (hint!). It is truly how much I have learned from the people onthis forum. Just a couple of years ago I could barely talk about woodblocks or their history. The knowledge I have assimilated while participating on [Baren] has given me the confidence to not only do woodblocks but also to actual run discussion groups and to do hanga demonstrations to others. Lot of what is discussed today on the list has more to do with the social aspects of being an artist...than with actual woodblock printmaking. Taking a term from Gregory's post and defining [Baren] as a multi-cellular organism....it has evolved with a mind and direction of it's own to which each of the members contributes...yet to which no one really has control. Where/what will [Baren] be in five, ten years ? Why the decline of discussion of moku hanga ? In my opinion, the makeup of the group has grown exponentially to include all types of "printmakers"......this is good, but clearly not all share or are interested in the water base technique. I think also the online encyclopedia and the online books serve as a ready source of how-to for the beginners and those needing constant guidance (like me!). The proliferation of other printmaking websites & lists has members participating not only in multiple lists, but also at times in multiple exchanges and gives then access to resources perhaps not around back when Baren got formed. There is just so much time anyone of us can give to any online list. As I said, all of this is positive & good. So what to do ? I think it is up to those of us...those interested in doing water based hanga in the traditional style to keep up the discussions online, to bring up related events (like April's post about the discussion in NY)...to ask the hard questions from those in the know.....to share our triumphs as well as our defeats (I got plenty of those!).....to make converts of the oily folks...and above all... to share & promote our style of prints...not just with the list members here but also with the rest of the world.... as April & Sarah do in NY with their exhibits & classes, as David does in Japan thru his subscription albums, as Matt Brown does in the east with his fairs...and as many other members do in their own backyards.....promote.... as I am doing now with the Skokie exhibit and as others like Arye (Israel), Gregory (Uganda), Gayle (Ohio), Barbara Hearn (NY), Richard Steiner (Kyoto) have done in the past.....or are planning to do with their own print exhibits in the near future Dan (Flrorida), Bea (Los Angeles).... Perhaps Ukiyo-e prints and their special time are long gone as so is the old traditional collaboration of incredible craftsmen that created such wonderful prints...but perhaps as April mentions...we can learn and use from what they have left behind as a wonderful source of inspiration for our own prints and those of future generations. And...yes..above all, as always Cut! Print! thanks...Julio ps..Not too early to start sending in your ideas or articles for the next "Barensuji" newsletter...due late June...please off-list to me. ------------------------------ From: "Alan Basist" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:26:00 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14652] hanga question charset="iso-8859-1" I am making bookmarks using the japanese woodblock method and need an approriate paper that will be stiff enough to use as a bookmark. Does anyone have any suggestions? Jerelee - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:27 AM Subject: [Baren 14648] Re: a century of american woodcuts > Excellent site! Thanks Darrell. > > Barbara P. > > Here is an internet exhibit with a lot of prints: > > > > http://www.artline.com/galleries/haslem/woodcuts/woodcuts.html > > > > Darrell ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:06:43 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14653] Re: hanga question I used Arches 88 for snakes and dragons - it is stiff enough and holds water color well, Bea - -----Original Message----- From: Alan Basist >I am making bookmarks using the japanese woodblock method and need an >approriate paper that will be stiff enough to use as a bookmark. Does anyone >have any suggestions? Jerelee ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:20:31 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14654] oil and water after all charset="iso-8859-1" > April writes: > ".... I fear our list has lost its focus on moku hanga since Dave > stepped back. I was reminded how compelling Ukiyo-e has been for our group > in the past." and "....what we contemporary printmakers do is > moku hanga, > simply the technique of Japanese water base woodcut. The historic prints I > saw this week were an inspiration from the past for contemporary > printmaking." > > Julio writes: I also share April's concerns. While it is true that [Baren] or > barenforum.org has grown beyond anyone's > imagination...I too miss the old days where the meat of > discussion centered > around technique and woodblock > printmaking discussions. I had been afraid this day would come. When I joined Baren I was very interested in the woodcut technique, not necessarily moku-hanga but, after all, much of the technique is shared with oily folk. I bow to the expertise and tradition of the Japanese method, and I have printed out and learned from the Encyclopedia as well as from the experts in the group. But moku-hanga is such a small corner of the tradition of printmaking, even woodcut printmaking...a shame it would be indeed if we restricted ourselves to that minute selection of what Baren has become. On the other hand, I have felt always that I did not fit into this forum, by far the best forum on the net. Shyly, I started contributing and always felt the guilt of deviating from the traditional approach. As Baren became more all-encompassing, I felt a sense of belonging and felt welcomed, perhaps prematurely. > Lot of what is discussed today on the list has more to do with the social > aspects of being an artist...than with actual woodblock > printmaking. Taking > a term from Gregory's post and defining [Baren] as a multi-cellular > organism....it has > evolved with a mind and direction of it's own to which each of the members > contributes...yet to which no one really has control. Where/what will > [Baren] be in five, ten years ? But how can we possibly separate the social aspect of being an artist from the craft? Or perhaps we should become a "how to" list with occasional historical fact thrown in for extra interest? How many times can we discuss the "too much water, too little water" issue? Far as I know, Dave is the only member who enjoys the task of being solely a craftsman. Are the rest of us artists to keep silent as he talks and teaches technique? I have no doubt perhaps this might have been the original purpose of Baren, to share woodblock technique and history among woodblock lovers. - ------------------ The [Baren] Forum for Woodblock Printmaking Anything and everything about: the process of making woodblock prints - carving, printing, tools, suitable papers, etc. etc. matters of general interest to woodblock printmakers - your current printmaking projects, new web sites, general discussion ... - ------------------- But the organism has grown, evolved may be a better term. How can we turn back evolution in any and every sense of the word? And if this was not to be the future of Baren, why let it get this far only to turn back the clock? For goodness-sakes, we have become friends, have we not? Friends and colleagues who work together...now we are putting a selective foot down? > So what to do ? > I think it is up to those of us...those interested in doing water based > hanga in the traditional style to keep up the discussions online, to bring > up related events (like April's post about the discussion in NY)...to ask > the hard questions from those in the know.....to share our > triumphs as well > as our defeats (I got plenty of those!).....to make converts of the oily > folks...and above all... I will speak only for myself when I say that although I find moku hanga a fascinating technique and the history of woodblock worthy of veneration, I have not the least intention of "converting." There is an energy and vitality in the oil based ink and the European approach to printmaking (e.g. German expressionism) that is, for me, completely missing in moku hanga. I'm sure you feel the same way about hanga. Approaching the raw block with a sharp chisel rather than with a carefully defined drawing, having ink actually appear in relief on the paper, the chunky thick paper, layering the inks until they shine, spontaneity, changing designs as the chisels take over, those are among the things I love about what I do. Hardly on the path of hanga. > to share & promote our style of prints...not just with the list members > here but also with the rest of the world.... as April & Sarah do > in NY with > their exhibits & classes, as David does in Japan thru his subscription > albums, as Matt Brown does in the east with his fairs...and as many other > members do in their own backyards.....promote.... as I am doing now with > the Skokie exhibit and as others like Arye (Israel), Gregory (Uganda), > Gayle (Ohio), Barbara Hearn (NY), Richard Steiner (Kyoto) have > done in the > past.....or are planning to do with their own print exhibits in the near > future Dan (Flrorida), Bea (Los Angeles).... And all those exhibits included, did they not, a 'majority' of oil based prints. As do our exchanges. I have said before and firmly believe that the more artists divide ourselves, the more ridiculous and powerless we become. Are we now starting this division process in Baren? Are those of us who do not conform to the original purpose of Baren to remain quiet as moku hanga enthusiasts not only "share and promote our style" but also retain the power to shut down the conversation when it deviates? Is the cell/organism so large that it is already time to divide? Perhaps the time has come when Baren's original purpose must be revived by its creators, and it is consequently time for some of us to move on. Who are *we* when we say?: "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately" Health to all, Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V13 #1440 *****************************