Baren Digest Monday, 18 June 2001 Volume 15 : Number 1459 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary Luedtke" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:18:19 -0500 Subject: [Baren 14833] Re: Fw: giclee Barb, and all, I think the terms Giclee, inkjet, original print, hand-pulled print, woodblock print, reproduction prints, etc. are very confusing, not only to artists, but the sellers and buyers of art. Perhaps a more universally acceptable explanation of terms would be in order, that if nothing else, could be handed out as a response to folks who are uncertain about what they are looking at. I think it would also be helpful to the seller to more accurately identify what it ishe/she is selling. Of course you will always have those that try to pass an object of lesser value off as an object of greater value. As reproductions can be done of any artwork, it confuses things when the media they are reproduced in also can be the media for original art,computer prints for example, as well as woodblock prints. As artists are the parties involved who stand to lose the most, perhaps it is up to us to properly define these terms. It might be an interesting exercise to define what the proper terms for these things should be so that eventually we can have our own dictionary of print types for our own reference as well as for others. What do you think? How many different print types do you suppose there are? 50? 100? Has anyone run across an existing dictionary of print definitions that would be relevant to this? Gary KC P.S. Glad your Northwest Print Council is accepting computer prints, Barb. Just local stuff? ------------------------------ From: "eli griggs" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:40:26 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14834] Re: Fw: giclee Hi there: How about The Baren Council taking out an ad on EBay, using the same keywords as the Giclee marketeers and sell at cost an information sheet describing the difference between their product and a fine art print. At the very least it is likely that we could put enough info on the ad page description to put buyers on notice that they need to inquire further. We could set up an legitimate order page that would contain redirects to a info url. Perhaps we could join forces with other interested parties and get a small grant to cover cost. This would put the purveyors of overpriced Giclee prints (and related matter) on notice and hopefully save some unknowing buyers from making bad buys. Eli Griggs Charlotte N.C. USA http://www.geocities.com/eli_griggs/mypage.html ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14835] terms Gary, The American Print Alliance has a glossary of terms http://www.printalliance.org/library/li_glossary.html but are you meaning more definite identification? Even some printmakers seem confused at times with all the different processes. We work so hard to educate the public but at times it seems it is sure a losing battle. I really like Eli's idea of putting info on Ebay. Barbara ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:13:28 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14836] Ebay and Giclee Eli, The add on Ebay is pretty cheap, are you suggesting we sell a page of informaiton, say for $1 and put lots of info on our add page describing our info for sale? What a smart idea. We could list it under woodblock, fine art prints, etchings, and lithographs and so on. My husband sells a lot of musical instruments on Ebay, I will ask him about this. Maybe Ebay is a great information dispural tool and we have been missing the boat. I always like positive instead of negative action. Excellent idea. The costs would be so minimal, xeroxing and postage once the info sheet was written and of course they would be paid by whoever bid on our informaiton sheet. Maybe we can actually cover our costs....ingenious idea. Barbara >How about The Baren Council taking out an ad on EBay, using the same key words as the Giclee marketeers and sell at cost an information sheet describing the difference between their product and a fine art print. At the very least it is likely that we could put enough info on the ad page description to put buyers on notice that they need to inquire further. We could set up an legitimate order page that would contain redirects to a info url. Perhaps we could join forces with other interested parties and get a small grant to cover cost. This would put the purveyors of overpriced Giclee prints (and related matter) on notice and hopefully save some unknowing buyers from making bad buys. Eli Griggs ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:18:06 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14837] Re: Fw: giclee Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barbara, everyone,...I think that most people that don't know don'treally care if it's a print or a reproduction. They just want somethingto hang on the wall that matches their couch. I get two publications that are just on reproductions. It's a super big business and there are many, many publishing house that print picturesof pictures. Some make the slight distinction that they are selling"reproduction prints", but the terminologies vary a lot. And the people that sell giclee printers, the actual printers, run a lotof ads as well. 'Seems everyone is buying one. You don't need anyspecial skills, 'just let the machine do it. Nice matt [also computer cut] and a nice frame and you're in business. I also get a little quarterly tabloid on real print dealers and print shows around the country. It's all alive and well. The concern with the terminology used is not all that important , in my humble opinion. Both have their place at the table. People that buyreproductions know, I think, what they are buying and don't really care,as do the sellers that misrepresent their product. Anyway, just a thought. Philip Hammond, OR USA ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:44:40 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14838] Fw: Giclee fraud I found this amazing site on http://www.worldprintmakers and think it may be helpful http://www.artbusiness.com/index.html this is the home page of Alan Bamberger a well known art writer. So what do you think, shall we follow through with Eli's idea? Sorry to send this long email but in case anyone missed the whole thing, it is all here. I promise not to post for days. Barbara - ----- Original Message ----- From: "bemason" To: Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Giclee fraud > Hi Alan, > I have long enjoyed your writing and was glad to see your article on World > Printmakers. I am the Secretary/Treasurer of the Northwest Print Council and > on the managing council of http://www.barenfourm.org . This is a losely > organised internet site of woodblock and linoblock printmakers. Started by > David Bull in Japan with 6 members http://www.woodblock.com it has taken on > a life of its own and now has 400 + members all over the world. We have > international print exchanges four times a year and the archives of these > exchanges are being used for academic purposes and stored at the Spencer > Museum at the Uof Kansas by Steve Goddard. We are on #10 so that will make a > total of 300 prints. > > Recently we have noticed that there is a man selling Giclee prints of a 1929 > woodblock as original prints on Ebay. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1437686228 > My correspondence with him will follow. We are considering making up an > infromation page on the different kinds of prints and the giclee fraud and > selling it on ebay for $1, and giving a ton of information in our add. If we > could link to your pape, or send people to you it would be helpful, but I do > not want to give you zillions of unwanted emails. What do you think of this > idea? It is pretty frustrating for a printmaker to see a giclee of a > watercolor sold as a limited edition print, but more so to see a giclee of a > print sold this way. The general public is very confused about prints > already and this giclee deal is making it very difficult for artists. I see > both sides of this and have no problem with these giclee sales as long as > the buyer knows what they are buying, a copy of an original work on good > paper. No problem. But to have it called an original print is pretty > distressing. > Thanks for listening to my raving! > Very best regards, > Barbara Mason > Portland, Oregon > > > "original hand pulled print" ? What is this fancy talk? A print is a > reproduction. That's why they call it a print. Just because it is printed by > an "artist" does not make it an "original". Michael John Verlangieri > bemason wrote: > > Michael,If work is done in the computer and that is the real work of the > artist, designed in the computer, then it is real art work and not a > reproduction. This is obviously a woodblock that is reproduced as a giclee. > Therefore a reproduction on nice paper. I am very open minded, I am on the > board of the Northwest Print council and we are just now accepting digital > work into the council as prints, work done in the computer as original > computer art work. When people sell giclee's as original prints it hurts > printmakers enormously and confuses the public. We are now having to say > "original hand pulled print" in order to let people know the prints were > actually printed by the artist and not commercially reproduced as your > giclees are.Barbara Mason ----- Original Message ----- > From: michael@calpots.com > To: bemasonSent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 8:00 PMSubject: Re: giclee > Hi, I thought artist were to be opened minded. The shock of the new! And > we all thought, how can a can of soup be art? Andy showed us! ...michael > bemason wrote: > > Michael, > This is a reproduction, if you think not you are being taken for a ride! It > is a poster on good paper. > Barbara Mason > Artist/printmaker > > -- > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > --------------------------------------- > Michael John Verlangieri > Michael John Verlangieri > > > BurningBeds.com > http://www.BurningBeds.com > mailto:michael@BurningBeds.com > P.O.BOX 844, Cambria, California, 93428 > Phone: (805)927-4428 > Fax: (805)924-0110 > > "That which we persist in doing becomes easier ? not that the nature of the > task has changed, but our ability has increased." ? Ralph Waldo Emerson > Books I Recommend--Click Here > > > -- > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > --------------------------------------- > Michael John Verlangieri > Michael John Verlangieri > > > BurningBeds.com > http://www.BurningBeds.com > mailto:michael@BurningBeds.com > P.O.BOX 844, Cambria, California, 93428 > Phone: (805)927-4428 > Fax: (805)924-0110 > > "That which we persist in doing becomes easier ? not that the nature of the > task has changed, but our ability has increased." ? Ralph Waldo Emerson > Books I Recommend--Click Here > > > ------------------------------ From: "Garth Hammond" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:26:19 -0600 Subject: [Baren 14839] Re: terms charset="iso-8859-1" I'll send ten dollars to support the e-bay idea that Eli has. I don't have the time to organize but I can send energy in the folding form. If it works out keep me posted on what is needed. Garth ------------------------------ From: Kris Alder Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:36:27 -0600 Subject: [Baren 14840] Re: Fw: giclee Eli and all, Fantastic idea! Definitely a positive move to educate our public fine art audience and our not so public would-be "competitors." Do we need volunteers to help "man the presses?" and meet the requests for the information sheets? Let me know where I can help out. Thanks for the great idea, Eli! Kris >===== Original Message From eli griggs ===== >Hi there: > >How about The Baren Council taking out an ad on EBay, using the same key words as the Giclee marketeers and sell at cost an information sheet describing the difference between their product and a fine art print. > ------------------------------ From: b.patera@att.net Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:11:29 +0000 Subject: [Baren 14841] Re: Fw: giclee I'm afraid I agree with Philip's thoughts. Those who sell "Giclee Prints" know what they are selling and most of those who buy them want something that not only goes with the sofa, but is SAFE....has the proverbial "Good Housekeeping" stamp of approval. Even those who buy the reproductions as investments appear to be doing fairly well. There seems to be a brisk trade in Stoningtons and Doolittles... at least here in the Northwest. Whether this will continue or not remains to be seen. Though I imagine most who have already invested, so to speak, will resist any idea that they have grossly overpaid for a glorified poster. However, I will help in anyway that I can with the e-bay project. I don't mind tilting at a few windmills.... and who knows... Barbara P. ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V15 #1459 *****************************