Baren Digest Tuesday, 19 June 2001 Volume 15 : Number 1462 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: barebonesart Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:11:30 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14862] Re: Baren Digest V15 #1461 I vote yes on Eli's e-bay suggestion. I am still sick to the tummy about that arrogant (expletive deleted) Michael who is selling "prints" and doesn't even know what one is. Aaaaaaargh. Go for it, Eli! Sharri ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:30:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14863] petition Jeanne, I got a letter back from my whine to ebay saying too bad, let the buyer beware....they don't guarantee anything.. See this article http://www.artbusiness.com/ebayitch.html and you will see what we are up against. I think the positive information sale on ebay is a better way to go. Barbara ------------------------------ From: Marco Flavio Marinucci Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:35:28 -0800 Subject: [Baren 14864] information sheet hey guys, as a very valid form of distribution there is also an Acrobat (PDF) document dowloadable from barenforum. the print Alliance and anybody else who will let us post it on their site. Any computer with a reader will open it. People can get it for free (which means more will) and pass it along without problem. just my 2 cents. Marco flavio > From: owner-baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:25:15 +0900 > To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Subject: Baren Digest V15 #1461 > > I don't know how to do it, but I've heard it's not very expensive: What > about a disc? "The A - Z's Of Traditional Hand Pulled Prints"? > You could load a disc with tons of info, examples, yada, yada, yada... > inexpensively and shipping would be almost nada. > My 2 cents. ------------------------------ From: barebonesart Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:18:42 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14865] Re: Baren Digest V15 #1461 Sorry about the additional posting. But, I just ran across a brochure the NWPC published a few years ago about the different orignal print processes. We could up date it a little and it could be the item for sale at $1 to cover postage, printing, handling, etc. I wish I had time to take this on, but not 'til next year. Maybe we could get someone from NWPC to do it - Barbara and I could work that out. Count me as another $$ donor. Sharri ------------------------------ From: GraphChem@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:51:03 EDT Subject: [Baren 14866] Re: Eli's idea If you don't have someone capable to create a CD with the basic information, try contacting dan@dansabo.com. Dan Sabo is a printmaker, and has developed numerous printmaking websites (including ours). He is currently working on a CD type catalog of our products complete with artwork, ROM price list, color charts etc. If it can be done, Dan's the one who can do it. Dean Clark ------------------------------ From: Laohuxu@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:04:29 EDT Subject: [Baren 14867] Trip to Estonia Hi everyone, I'll be visiting Estonia for three weeks in June and July, and was wondering if anyone knows of any print- or paper-related places, exhibits, shops, etc. that I shouldn't miss. (Or anything else offbeat and essential!) Thanks! Best wishes, Liz Horton ------------------------------ From: GraphChem@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:27:57 EDT Subject: [Baren 14868] Re: Trip to Estonia Too bad on the timing. Estonia is practically across the street from Finland, and at the of August (8/30-9/1) the IMPACT show will be held in Helsinki. This show was in Bristol, England two years ago. It's patterned on the Southern Graphics model. There are several suppliers, including Graphic Chemical, that will be attending. Before the show, Graphic will have representatives in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France and Lithuania contacting customers and potential customers. Any suggestions on others we should visit would be greatly appreciated. Dean ------------------------------ From: Printmaker Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:05:01 +1000 Subject: [Baren 14869] Ebay Hi all I agree totally with Eli's idea, good man! Print Australia is also at your disposal with this. The guy from world printmakers (Michael?) has been very vocal about this too. How about we rope him in as well and maybe go whole hog and rope in all the people on Prints-L and Paper-L too? Thinking of Graham's page on Glicee - maybe a general 'add' that everyone with a website could include on their site too... Barbara, can you cross post this to PA too please? Josephine ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:33:20 -1000 Subject: [Baren 14870] Re: petition Thanks Barbara, this was an interesting article, There is a lot that I like about eBay. Having said that, here is a little perspective on eBay's problem. As an object conservator with over 20 years of experience, I have acquired a knowledge base of a very wide range of art objects. Although I am by no means an expert in most of these categories, I have at least enough knowledge in materials and styles to do rudimentary evaluations of a lot of different kinds of art. From time to time, I scan through eBay, looking for objects for restoration for resale. In virtually every category of art that I have looked through, there are a very large quantity of misrepresentations and outright fakes. In some of the areas that I am very familiar with, I would say that by far the majority of the objects listed are either grossly over hyped, or are completely misidentified. It is also very easy to identify individuals that are making a regular business of purchasing new items, and posting them on eBay with improper identifications and date of manufacture, listed one right after another. EBay has always stated that their policy is pretty much "hands off" concerning their sellers, that they are just offering a venue for private buyers and sellers to connect. It is unfortunate, though not at all surprizing that a large number of unscrupulous sellers are taking advantage of a huge customer base of largely unknowledgable collectors. The problem is so rampant on eBay, that I cannot imagine how they could possible even begin to tackle it, and I'm sure that they are not too interested in posting lots of warnings about it on their site, and scaring off customers. Also remember, eBay takes their small cut of each of those sales, even the bad ones. It might be interesting to see what an information sale on eBay would do, but I wonder if people shopping for bargain prints to decorate with are really going to be interested in purchasing information that they may not really care to know. After all, the information is already out there, and if these customers have not made any efforts to educate themselves by now before spending their hard earned dollars, I wonder... As for putting the unscrupulous sellers on eBay out of business, it's a little like emptying the ocean with a bucket. Jack bemason wrote: > Jeanne, > I got a letter back from my whine to ebay saying too bad, let the buyer > beware....they don't guarantee anything.. > See this article http://www.artbusiness.com/ebayitch.html > and you will see what we are up against. I think the positive information > sale on ebay is a better way to go. > Barbara ------------------------------ From: "Bill H Ritchie Jr" Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:58:11 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14871] Re: Dan's 2 cent disc idea charset="iso-8859-1" Hi bareners - All fired up over the print education problem? This is understandable. Pretend I'm an old timer--been around long enough to see a pile of brochures, books, movies, lawsuits, etc. to know it's never ending. Dan is right, discs are easy to "burn", lightweight, standardized for mailing. You get AOL free CD's all the time, right? I think Dan's idea is best, although printed matter seems to have favor. It will take time, but baren has an edge, since this group is shall we say, specialized somewhat, somewhat "niched" and "narrow-marketed." I am finishing testing my sixth disc, based on the DVD format. I've been working on them for six months as part of my own 40-year retrospective. I'm still learning things--hence the "tests". I feel like a law student getting ready for my BAR. I've hated doing it alone, but I know more people in the arts will be using DVD. I think it's better than CD/ROM, but most people disagree with me because more people have CD/ROMs and they run on Internet browsers. However, I see the sales of DVDs taking over the VHS Movie market, and companies like Blockbusters renting DVD players instead of VCRs. It's just a matter of time until individual artists are sending out DVDs instead of slides to shows and galleries. In Seattle, for example, the local organization that gives biannual grants to artists already bought DVD players for their PC systems because they know artists--especially performance artists--are gearing up for DVD. The nice thing is, too, that if you can do something cool in 6-seconds (like I'm trying to do, teacher that I am) such as apply ink to a block, it can be put on the web in various motion/audio formats. You've probably got greeting cards like this from people attached to your e-mail and running under RealPlayer or whatever. With all this, you can tell my passion for printmaking is spilling over to the lower forms of art, like digital. :) - - Bill ------------------------------ From: Aqua4tis@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:23:15 EDT Subject: [Baren 14872] Re: Eli's idea hi barbara and everyone i just wanted to say that im in favor of this whole thing and i think joining up with another group is a good idea as well as a printmaker id like to have some clear cut definitions as well georga ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:22:40 EDT Subject: [Baren 14873] Re: giclees advertising & Barensuji contributions friend don't let friends do giclees john of the furry press ------------------------------ From: Bossbumpy@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:28:01 EDT Subject: [Baren 14874] Re: Giclee on e-bay I vote yes, and I'll put my money where my mouth is. But how many $s are needed? Tim Scott ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:43:17 EDT Subject: [Baren 14875] Re: "Japanese Print Making" by Toshi Yoshida Marco Try to get a copy of the printmaking book you want from the Public Library, especially since you are in San Francisco. They may have an inter-library loan system. That is how I have borrowed many out of print woodblock books. Carol ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:36:24 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14876] more on giclees charset="iso-8859-1" As I battle these beasts every art festival I attend, I also believe that education is the key. However, education must always be given with kid gloves and a true love for the craft, otherwise, to the uninformed, it all sounds like "buy my snake-oil, not theirs." Here is something that everyone can do right now, and some states are making laws about this: slap a certificate of authenticity on the back of every print you make available to the public. The unsuspecting buyer turns it around and sees things like: "block cancelled", "edition hand-printed by the artist", "Magnani Incisioni paper, cherrywood block" and so on... They are intrigued... they ask the magic question: "what does this mean?" THEN! you grab them by the throat (very gently) and shove a ready-made "what is a print" pamphlet down their gullets (also very gently). Their eyes widen (due to lack of oxygen, no doubt) and they are AMAZED! Wow! they are holding a PRINT hand-printed by a lowly artist! Low and behold, and now they can tell all their friends how much they know about printmaking... I offer some points to ponder in the name of the crusade: - -The "enemy" are not only dealers and peddlers of ill repute, but also the multi-million dollar printing industry and, most importantly...our sister and brother artists who have invested heavily and see this venue as their only way to make ends meet. Right they are, too, because selling $50-300 iris prints is a heck of a lot easier than selling $2,500-10,000 original watercolors, paintings, or whathaveyous (especially whathaveyous). Not every artist is a printmaker able to make multiples or can afford real lithograph reproductions of their paintings. - -Many more people than you may think aren't confused at all, they simply want a blue/teal semi-abstract for their wall and will buy whatever matches. They know exactly what they are buying and don't really care that the inks are fugitive or there are laser-printer lines across the piece because when you back up enough, you can't see it. Not everyone is an art collector and not everyone can, or wants to be convinced that collecting art is a superior pursuit in life than decorating a home. And nobody that just spent $400 on a giclee is going to sit still and listen to a lesson on printmaking. - -Sometimes education doesn't take. Witness the multi-gazillion dollar weight loss industry. In my past life, I was an Exercise Physiologist and ran a rehab/fitness center. Righteous in nature, I could have screamed "exercise more, eat less" until I was blue as I watched people waste thousands of dollars on pills, protein diets, Tae-bo videos... When you are battling capitalism at work, life can be very disappointing and you can't really tell the public what to want. You can tell yourself that you sleep at night, but rest assured, so does the inventor of the "cabbage soup diet." We can work with the system, offer a product, in this case fine-original-hand-pulled-woodcut-prints and we can let the market decide. I suggest we make 'em nice and spread 'em around. People really do like them better. Health to all, Maria ------------------------------ From: Tariq and Princess Rashid Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:37:57 -0400 Subject: [Baren 14877] Re: ebay offer boundary="------------A6A84286DFAAE3211C893D41" Princess here. I totally agree on the need to educate the public on the difference between an original print and reproduction. But I don't know if any potential customers would be interested in buying that information even for a dollar. But I support the effort.... with my vote and checkbook...we must begin somewhere. Actually I see the real progress being made one customer at a time... being informed by us at our shows, exhibits, conventions and art fairs...etc. Here's a quote from Ralph Mayer's ,The Artist's Handbook of Materials and Techniques. "In fine arts, graphic arts designates all processes for the production of multiple-proof pictures on paper on a handmade basis, the work being done either wholly or in most part by the original artists, and editions limited. Prints are made either in black and white or in multiple color impressions and the individual copies or proofs may be signed and numbered by the artist in pencil on the lower margin. Making an impression is called pulling a proof. The term "graphic arts" excludes all forms of mechanically reproduced works photographed or redrawn on plates; all processes in which the artist did not participate to his or her fullest capacity are reproductions. The standard name for an artist's proof is original print. So-called "art prints" or limited edition" posters are often catchwords that signify high-speed machine-printed reproductions, and have little or nothing to do with an artist's creative use of the printmaking mediums." pg 574 I'm a printmaker as well as a painter. But I think the public is really confused about the whole thing....prints or reproductions...especially when it comes to prices. Each hand pulled proof is an original print and should cost more than the reproduction (copy) of that same image..Just like the original painting should cost more than reproductions (off-set lithography, giclees, etc...) of it. But when you start talking about computer-generated images and even off-set lithography (lithography is a printmaking process) , even I get confused. But I better figure out an explanation before my first show. - -- One of the reasons I was attracted to printmaking in the first place is because I could make images that I could price reasonably and make assessible to more people than possible with painting. And I rather sell a print than a poster...there's nothing more irritating than seeing a $20 poster in a $100 frame. But to get people to really see the difference we need to communicate to them...make them part of the process. Sorry for the ramble, Princess bemason wrote: > So far there are three yes and one no vote on this idea of Eli's. Before we > involve baren in any possible backlash from rash action, or in this case > very planned action we need to hear more votes. > Four people cannot speak for such a large group so if you have a feeling > about this, please let it be known. > > In case you missed the email, the idea is to put a page on ebay selling > informaiton on how to tell a real print and what a giclee really is, most of > the information will truly be in the discription of the item for sale, but > we will have to have a nice little info sheet done up in case anyone > actually buys one. We can start the price at $1 and as we have more than one > it can be marketed this way. We should be able to pay for xeroxing and > stamps by donation or sales. This would be a chance to spread correct > information but we need imput from the membership. > > Thanks, > Barbara ------------------------------ From: "bemason" Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:19:12 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14878] Re: more on giclees Maria, I agree totally with you, the authenticity statement is required in Oregon so we always use one. Not so in other states, but everyone should make one up. You are in a wonderful position to educate and we all do our part wherever we are. The number of people we could reach on ebay is unbelievable and if we never sold one pamphlet, we could get our message out to hundreds of thousands of people by describing our pamphlet in detail. We want to approach this carefully if we proceed. I have sent an email to Carol Pulin at the American Print Alliance to see if there is interest in partnering with Baren. The American Print Alliance is an organization of organizations, the NW Print council belongs as well as the Southern Graphics Council and many others. Individual printmakers also belong. http://www.printalliance.org There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for doing something. Lets think about it for a few days and discuss it again in a week or so. I loved John's email about friends not letting friends make giclees....I almost fell off my chair laughing. Barbara - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Arango" > As I battle these beasts every art festival I attend, I also believe that > education is the key. However, education must always be given with kid > gloves and a true love for the craft, otherwise, to the uninformed, it all > sounds like "buy my snake-oil, not theirs." > > Here is something that everyone can do right now, and some states are making > laws about this: slap a certificate of authenticity on the back of every > print you make available to the public. The unsuspecting buyer turns it > around and sees things like: "block cancelled", "edition hand-printed by the > artist", "Magnani Incisioni paper, cherrywood block" and so on... They are > intrigued... they ask the magic question: "what does this mean?" > THEN! you grab them by the throat (very gently) and shove a ready-made "what > is a print" pamphlet down their gullets (also very gently). Their eyes widen > (due to lack of oxygen, no doubt) and they are AMAZED! Wow! they are holding > a PRINT hand-printed by a lowly artist! Low and behold, and now they can > tell all their friends how much they know about printmaking... ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:26:52 -1000 Subject: [Baren 14879] Re: more on giclees I agree with Maria, if I understand her correctly. Instead of taking the time to come up with some snazzy information to sell, spend the time to make more prints, better prints, and flood the market with real art. Heck, offer your own prints on eBay, along with your "real prints" spiel, and everyone can read it for free! Imagine... "What I am offering here is a real woodblock print, hand pulled by the well known artist Maria Arango, member of the prestigious Baren printmakers group (link here)..." Jack Maria Arango wrote: > > ...We can work with the system, offer a product, in this case > fine-original-hand-pulled-woodcut-prints and we can let the market decide. I > suggest we make 'em nice and spread 'em around. People really do like them > better. ------------------------------ From: "Jean Eger" Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:58:26 -0700 Subject: [Baren 14880] E-Bay charset="iso-8859-1" We could ask E-Bay to have a separate section for original fine art prints, which would exclude giclee prints. Jean Eger Womack http://www.jeaneger.com ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V15 #1462 *****************************