Baren Digest            Wednesday, 28 November 2001    Volume 17 : Number 1631


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From: "Philip Smith" <SmithArt@Pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 05:16:23 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16225] TV 

While watching HGTV the other evening, there was this wood carver. What he
did was a bit strange. He soaked the piece of wood he was carving on with
some kerosene. He said it made carving easier. You might want to give it a
try.
Philip
Hammond,
OR

------------------------------

From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:27:09 EST
Subject: [Baren 16226] Re: Wood engravings/woodcuts

??  are wood engravings considered wood cuts for this diff as they are wood 
and relief?

john of the furry press

------------------------------

From: Daniel Dew <ddew@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:37:11 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16227] Re: wood engravings/woodcuts

Finally, someone else asked the question I was afraid to ask:  What is the
difference?

I see many Escher prints labeled woodcut and wonder if they are really wood
engravings.
Oh well, anxious to see the answers from the "sages of the wood".

Daniel L. Dew
http://www.dandew.com/
ddew@tampabay.rr.com



> From: FurryPressII@aol.com
> Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:27:09 EST
> To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Subject: [Baren 16226] Re:  wood engravings/woodcuts

> ??  are wood engravings considered wood cuts for this diff as they are wood
> and relief?
> 
> john of the furry press



------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:22:30 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16228] Re: TV 

Philip.
This would be like soaking it in oil, as kerosene is pretty oily. I would
think the fumes alone would do you in, not to mention the fact that water
based ink might not work very well on wood soaked with kerosene. Some use
water to make the wood easier to carve but kerosene is sure a new one. I
would advise people not to do this if they want to print with water based
pigments......and not to do it if they work indoors with no ventilation fan.
This is only  my own opinion, not based on any real studies or anything. It
just seems like a bad idea, using chemicals if they are not totally
necessary. Guess I am turning into a purist here.
Best to all,
Barbara

>While watching HGTV the other evening, there was this wood carver. What he
>did was a bit strange. He soaked the piece of wood he was carving on with
>some kerosene. He said it made carving easier. You might want to give it a
>try.
>Philip
>Hammond,
>OR



------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:33:37 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16229] woodcuts and wood engravings 

Dan and John
I think wood engravings are usually done across grain and cut with a burin,
not a knife. So you push the wood out of the small grove with this tool.
Sort of works like a v gouge. The lines are usually very fine and close
together, developing all the gradations by the closeness of one line to
another. They are not as deeply cut as woodcut as they are almost always
printed with oil based inks. Water based inks would swell the tiny lines
closed. Engravings look quite a bit different than woodcuts. I am sure some
engravers work on the plank side of wood, but probably not many as it would
be a lot harder to engrave. I have some great books by Blair Hughes Stanton
and Gertrude Hermes and Clair Leighton showing their engravings, they are
such amazing studies of light and dark. I think there are others whose work
is equally ooutstanding, particulary a man Andy English mentioned but I have
lost the name in my senior memory! I don't know about the Escher prints.
Maybe they are done on the plank side and that is the distinction.
Best to all,
Barbara (definitely not a sage of the wood)


> I see many Escher prints labeled woodcut and wonder if they are really

wood

> engravings.
> Oh well, anxious to see the answers from the "sages of the wood".
>
> Daniel L. Dew
>




------------------------------

From: James G Mundie <jimandkatemundie@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:39:04 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16230] passing of a fellow printmaker 

It is with deep sadness that I tell you all that noted artist printmaker
Jacob Landau passed away on Saturday, 24 November 2001.  Funeral services
were held on the 26th near his home in New Jersey. 

He will be missed.

Regards,
James Mundie
Philadelphia USA

------------------------------

From: Brian Lockyear <brianl@synopsys.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:53:30 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16231] woodcuts and wood engravings 

I recently saw the plates for "Angels & Devils" (Correct title I think??) by
Escher at the Gilkey Center.  Definitely not end-grain.  Very hard
material... almost a masonite type of surface (but hard all the way
through).  I would not be surprized if he used engraving tools.  So is it the
tool or the end-grain that makes it a woodcut versus an engraving?  (Oh no!
We've probably just kicked off an endless argument on the subject!  [:-)] )

Another interesting fact about the print was that it was circular but Escher
carved the plate for only one third of the image and then did three drops
rotating each time.  Talk about tricky registration!

    - Brian -

------------------------------

From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:09:24 EST
Subject: [Baren 16232] Re: wood engravings/woodcuts

i know what wood engravings are been doing um for who knows long.    

the question was would they be acceptable under the rules of baren 
my plank grain wood cuts do not look a great deal different from my end grain 
wood engravings i even use maple for both. In fact the lino looks more 
different.

i once gave some one i know a wood cut and a wood engraving of the same 
subject and asked them if they could tell the difference they could not. and 
they were printmakers  too.
all most all of my prints have some plank grain wood cut matrixes involved so 
i think they would be acceptable.

john of the furry press
john center

------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:29:04 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16233] RE: engravings 


> the question was would they be acceptable under the rules of baren
> my plank grain wood cuts do not look a great deal different from
> my end grain


John, I've sent wood engravings for some of the exchanges and nobody has
flogged me yet. We have several closet engravers in the Baren group and for
the smaller exchanges, I always think engraving. Harder wood, smaller
tools... same process far as I'm concerned.
I just finished an 8" x 10" beaut!
Hey, speaking of corian ;-)...
what do you tint the surface with? Ink slides right off that slicker!

RE: Art Board's previous post, re comments on the glue that holds either the
plywood together or the fiber board. I would not recommend to my good Baren
friends something that is harmful to tools, now would I... In fact, linoleum
is much more abrasive to tools than plywood.
Keep-a-cuttin'

Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>



------------------------------

From: Daniel Dew <ddew@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:01:38 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16234] Re: website?

John, have you got a website so I can see some of this stuff?  I know you've
probably given it out in the past, but me not too smart all the time.

Daniel L. Dew
http://www.dandew.com/
ddew@tampabay.rr.com


> From: FurryPressII@aol.com
> Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:09:24 EST
> To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Subject: [Baren 16232] Re: woodcuts and wood engravings
> 
> i know what wood engravings are been doing um for who knows long.
> 
> 
> the question was would they be acceptable under the rules of baren
> my plank grain wood cuts do not look a great deal different from my end grain
> wood engravings i even use maple for both. In fact the lino looks more
> different.
> 
> i once gave some one i know a wood cut and a wood engraving of the same
> subject and asked them if they could tell the difference they could not. and
> they were printmakers  too.
> all most all of my prints have some plank grain wood cut matrixes involved so
> i think they would be acceptable.
> 
> john of the furry press
> john center



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From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:58:23 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16235] Re: woodcuts and wood engravings 

I'm asking Andy English? So is it the
tool or the end-grain that makes it a woodcut versus an engraving?   Bea

-

>I recently saw the plates for "Angels & Devils" (Correct title I think??) by
>Escher at the Gilkey Center.  Definitely not end-grain.  Very hard
>material... almost a masonite type of surface (but hard all the way
>through).  I would not be surprized if he used engraving tools.  So is it the
>tool or the end-grain that makes it a woodcut versus an engraving?  (Oh no!
>We've probably just kicked off an endless argument on the subject!  [:-)] )
>Another interesting fact about the print was that it was circular but Escher
>carved the plate for only one third of the image and then did three drops
>rotating each time.  Talk about tricky registration!
>
> - Brian -
>



------------------------------

From: Printmaker <severn@acay.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:27:24 +1100
Subject: [Baren 16236] New Exchange Rules 

>Josephine writes:
>"...Reading through the new exchange 'rules' attached below, I
>was wondering what is the delay with the FLORA prints? The
>due date was 1st November."

>Hi.....I think the new "stricter" rules become effective
>starting with
>Exchange #12. They were published
>near the end of the period for #11 (Flora).
>
>thanks.....Julio

Thanks for your response Julio. However as the new stricter
rules were sent out to all Flora people to inform them of
the conditions of the flora exchange I assumed that the
intent was for them to apply?

I am interested to hear if they have made any difference re
'slack people' and am still wondering what the delay is?

Josephine

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From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:47:09 EST
Subject: [Baren 16237] Re: engravings 

Maria i am printing corian right now the details print just as well as wood 
engraving with the advantage hand made paper with inclusions etc don't affect 
the wood the way it would a wood block on a press.  the solid areas print 
black much better than maple blocks.   I am printing an 12 by 18" block of 
corian wonder what that would cost in boxwood? (lol lmao & rofl).  I can get 
the same detail in corian as boxwood.

john center

ps maria thanks for the wood engravings  in the next WEN BUNDLE  you will get 
a corian print

------------------------------

From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:58:06 EST
Subject: [Baren 16238] Re: woodcuts and wood engravings 

brian both

------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:37:31 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16239] wood cut is a wood cut 

Well, I'm not Andy English but I think I understand where the confusion may
have arisen. I think the distinction is a silly one myself, but tradition
dictates otherwise and I respect that.
In days of old, many books do not make a distinction between wood cuts and
wood engravings, simply calling either "cuts". Understandably so, as the
process is _exactly_ the same.
As John has indicated, detailed woodcuts on plank maple and some wood
engravings can be undistinguishable. In fact our own James Mundie makes very
wood-engraving-like cuts on a wood as soft as pine with the masterful use of
a single edged razor blade.
Many wood engravers talk about doing a "cut," as cutting is exactly what is
done to the wood, just like in a bona fide "wood cut."

The wood is not "pushed" with the gravers, it is cut just like the plank
wood is cut with a v-chisel and a little curly sliver comes out just like in
a plank cut. As far as tools, the wood engravers tools are called gravers or
burins (same tools that metal engravers use for intaglio plates), they being
the principal line producing tools. There are also: tint tools, which also
cut a fine line and are available in a vast variety of widths; scorpers,
which cut a larger U-shaped or square chunk and are used for clearing;
multiple line tools (cheater, cheater!) which make quick work of producing a
gray "tint" in a background (for example). I'm sure I'm forgetting some,
these are deliciously precise tools, all the work being done with the edges
of the face of the tool. They don't have two blades coming together to a
point like a woodcutting V-chisel, instead they are a solid 'V' (or 'U')
because thin blades would break against the very hard wood.

End-grain maple is widely used for engravings, being very hard and tightly
grained. The blocks are very expensive and are glued together from end-grain
chunks of maple (duh). Fruit woods like pear and lemon are also widely used
but are difficult to get in the U.S. of A. The king of all woods (queen of
all woods?) is boxwood, difficult to get and expensive.
It is because these woods are expensive that engravers have turned to other
materials for our fine "cuts," with Resingrave (a layer of resin poured onto
a wood backing) and now Corian (synthetic marble like stuff) are desirable.

As far as the name, I don't know what to say. As I mentioned, James Mundie
makes what I would call engravings but he uses pine and a razor blade. A
"wood engraving" done on Corian is hardly a wood engraving, but that's what
I'm calling it. Some people use end-grain maple wood and make very wood-cut
like, er...cuts! that resemble cuts done on plank wood.
As far as the process, traditionally a wood engraving is composed of fine
lines and dots and stuff like that in a very detailed manner. Inking and
printing are much touchier for wood engravings, as they would be for a
detailed wood cut. And, personally, I find the process of wood engraving
more magical and enchanting.

Cut, print!
Health to all,
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "kent kirkpatrick" <kirk_star@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:04:52 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16240] Soaking brushes 


I looked at a booklet tonight that I bought some time ago at McClain's. 
It is "Notes to the Hanga  Printmaker:  The biomechanics of Printing" by William Paden.   
In this booklet he talks about soaking  brushes prior to printing  as an absolute essential 
part of printing.  He says: "Otherwise the bristles will become loose in their bindings and 
begin to shed badly...  A good rule of thumb  is to soak the entire brush and handle about 30 minutes. 
Wooden handles absorb  water more slowly than  bamboo handles, and large brushes need to be 
soaked longer than small brushes." I knew you were not to pull out hairs but clip them instead 
when one became "longer" than the rest of the  brush hairs.  Perhaps I was missing something but 
 hadn't been soaking brushes but noticed a few stray hairs. 

Any comments?

Kent Kirkpatrick
Portland, OR U.S.A.

------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:06:06 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16241] Re: wood cut is a wood cut 


Maria offered a long and lengthy explanation which pretty well 
defined the subject.

There is one significant factor that occurs between woodcuts and wood 
engravings.
That is colour.  Wood engravings are usually one colour often black 
and woodcuts are often multi colour.

The other factor that is sometimes done with wood engravings is the 
block is inked and then wiped and the resulting impression is 
positive line instead of negative line.

Maria wrote.....
RE: Art Board's previous post, re comments on the glue that holds 
either the plywood together or the fiber board. I would not recommend 
to my good Baren friends something that is harmful to tools, now 
would I... In fact, linoleum is much more abrasive to tools than 
plywood.

We do understand that but I again caution that the glues are not your 
tools friend.
As far as the linoleum... it depend on what brand.  The stuff you 
find in the back shed or old flooring can do serious damage.  The 
stuff you purchase new is not bad and you need not fear.

Just a couple of cents worth.... actually 1/2=A2 being its Canadian $

Create Cut Print.

Graham/Sidney BC
An Island in the Pacific
Home of the Boot Camp
http://members.home.net/gscholes/



------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:35:11 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16242] Re: Soaking brushes 


>Bareners,
>
>I looked at a booklet tonight that I bought some time ago at 
>McClain's.  It is "Notes to the Hanga Printmaker: The biomechanics 
>of Printing" by William Paden.  In this booklet he talks about 
>soaking brushes prior to printing as an absolute essential part of 
>printing.
>
>He says: "Otherwise the bristles will become loose in their bindings 
>and begin to shed badly... A good rule of thumb is to soak the 
>entire brush and handle about 30 minutes.  Wooden handles absorb 
>water more slowly than bamboo handles, and large brushes need to be 
>soaked longer than small brushes."
>
>I knew you were not to pull out hairs but clip them instead when one 
>became "longer" than the rest of the brush hairs. Perhaps I was 
>missing something but I hadn't been soaking brushes but noticed a 
>few stray hairs.  Any comments?
>
>-Kent Kirkpatrick


Without any doubt .... do not soak your Sosaku Brush (you got these 
at Boot Camp) or the professional Maru-bake. I think you got one of 
these from the Baren Mall and we discussed if they needed to be 
adjusted with sharkskin and or sandpaper. By the way they don't.  The 
one I have is marvelous just the way it came.

Stray hairs happen and can be expected.  The cheaper the brush 
usually the more strays.

You may recall that Jan (Boot Camp) was soaking her Hanga Bake 
brushes ... these are the ones with the long handle and the hair is 
bound with wire.  According to Jan this is OKY DOKY as per her 
teacher.  I have soaked mine with no problems. On one of mine I did 
make the mistake of pulling some hair out (I was impatient and in a 
hurray at the time) and now it is bald.

A month or so ago Dave made some important suggestions about the way 
he uses limited amounts of water to clean his brushes.  Maybe he will 
post it again.

Here is a posting I made in response to the same question.

On the subject of wetting brushes.  What a dilemma!
As mentioned, wetting leads to major problems down the road  It is so 
hard to get the colour out of a brush, ready for the next inking 
without generous amounts of water.  Of coarse if you are hugely rich 
(rich artist... there's an oxymoron)  you can have a brush for every 
colour and never worry about thoroughly getting all the colour out. 
Noboru Sawai advocates the use of wetting the brush including the 
wood. There seems to be two schools of thought on this.  As Mike 
said, this causes the wood to swell and tightens the grip on the 
bristles, and we all need to get a grip on on bristles.  Drying it 
afterwards is so terribly important.

I have found a little (actually big) kitchen tool that works like a 
charm to get the moisture out.

You ever see the gizmo that is used to spin the water out of lettuce?
For those that don't know what I am talking about let me know and I 
will put a picture on my site.

You can position the brushes, you need an even number ... 2 or 4 to 
maintain balance, bristles facing outward in the inside spin 
container and twirl the heck out them.  You can take a brush that has 
been rubbed with a cloth and shaken the devil out of, to give up more 
water. This is a sure method of getting most of any remaining 
moisture out.  If you are finished printing and the brushes won't be 
used for a few days or a month. (tsk tsk), after the spin cycle you 
can give your brushes a blow job with a hair dryer.  Feather the 
bristles and blow the warm air down to the heel of the brushes to dry 
any remaining dampness.  Warning... do this slowly and on low heat. 
It can take 15 to 20 minutes to be assured that the job is done.   

How's that new print coming along.
I am anxious to see it, especially if it is anything like the winner 
you did at boot camp.

Regards

Graham

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End of Baren Digest V17 #1631
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