Baren Digest             Tuesday, 11 December 2001     Volume 17 : Number 1648


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Elizabeth B. Atwood" <elizuno@midcoast.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:52:09 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16413] Garbage!!! 

Bareners All........

Agreeing with April...........please stop all the junk along with your
post. It is almost impossible to find the message.........ElizA



------------------------------

From: Jerald Krepps <krepp001@umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:08:27 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16414] Re: Garbage!!! 

Baren people--

I'm with the aforementioned--seems to be a lot of chat & not much
substance. I'll remain connencted for a while longer to see what
happens.
jerald


------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:05:07 -0600
Subject: [Baren 16415] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1645 

At 01:34 AM 12/10/2001 +0900, you wrote:

>From: Cucamongie@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:46:00 EST
>Subject: [Baren 16388] info re virus, PLEASE read asap


Please!  Let's NOT post virus warnings on our forum.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:10:15 -0600
Subject: [Baren 16416] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1646 

At 06:03 AM 12/10/2001 +0900, you wrote:

>bemason wrote:

> >
> > Finally, after two years of whining and looking for a spot I have 

> arranged a

> > small exhibit of the Baren exchange prints. We will show only prints 

> done on

> > woodblocks and mostly those done in the hanga method. This will be in
> > conjunction with a Japanese festival the Portland Art Museum is having from
> > June to September. The NW Print Council will show the Baren works in 

> July of

> > 2002 in the John and Betty Gray Gallery at 922 SW Main St, Portland OR
> > 97205. So there we go, another little step forward for woodblock. We will

><snip>


It would be wonderful if the Baren website at http://www.barenforum.org contained 
a listing of all shows (like these) in chronological order and/or 
by exchage -- that would make it easy for participants to come back at some 
late date and cut and paste...  What do you think?

Mike

Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 07:26:10 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16417] chat with no substance 

Is this true? have we gotten so tired of talking about paste and ink and
wood that we are no longer talking about woodblock printing and have become
a very large chat room?

I  would like to think we are just all busy and have said it lots of
times...however I would encourage anyone who has any questions to post them
and we will certainly try to answer. There is an enormous amount of
collective knowledge on this forum, so lets share it with whoever needs it.

Most of us post about exhibits we see and opportunities we find, but I do
admit that looking back the last few months there is little about process. I
remember when I was first on this forum (3+ years now) how informative it
was. Lets get back to that point. We are getting new people all the time who
would like this info.
Best to all,
Barbara



------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 07:46:38 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16418] RE: chat with no substance 


> Most of us post about exhibits we see and opportunities we find, but I do
> admit that looking back the last few months there is little about
> process. I
> remember when I was first on this forum (3+ years now) how informative it
> was. Lets get back to that point. We are getting new people all
> the time who
> would like this info.


So woodblock is all about process? Someone asked a question about marketing
prints, we answered. Is this chat with no substance?
Dang, yeah, let's cater to those valuable members of Baren, the lurkers who
never contribute except to threaten to cease lurking when they don't hear
what they want...
I'm out of here!
M

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "Bill H Ritchie Jr" <ritchie@seanet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:26:36 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16419] Re: The market for prints? 

Graham wrote:


>How much time do you figure you have with in your time frame Bill?


I turn 60 in two weeks, by the solar calendar. I feel like it will be my
10th birthday, by my own calendar. At age 50, the actuarial tables estimate
I've reached my half-life. However, there are forces at work in the world
that the actuaries, nose to their grindstones, never figured on. So I'm
switching to my 4-year old granddaughter's shoes, considering trying to walk
in them to understand what she'll think Grandpa was doing when there was
still hope of saving a world for her and her friends.

And, my friends at baren, that's why I don't get much printing done. I make
DVDs about this world we love, the printmakers'. If it was worth anything,
what was it?

And, (reflecting on a message I saw earlier this day), YES you CAN slow down
the "virtual hands of Mario" on a DVD. If anyone would like to read today's
essay about the state of DVD in-the-home as seen by an ITinerant Professor,
let me know.

Bill H. Ritchie, Jr
500 Aloha #105
Seattle WA 98109
(206) 285-0658
Professional: www.seanet.com/~ritchie
Virtual Gallery and E-Store: www.myartpatron.com
First Game Portal: www.artsport.com


------------------------------

From: "Randel Plowman" <randelplowman@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:40:51 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16420] Re: Garbage!!! 


>From: "Elizabeth B. Atwood" <elizuno@midcoast.com>
>Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
>To: BarenBoard <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
>Subject: [Baren 16413] Garbage!!!
>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:52:09 -0500
>
>Bareners All........
>
>Agreeing with April...........please stop all the junk along with your
>post. It is almost impossible to find the message.........ElizA
>
>I agree........ I am more interested in techniques and processes than

opening mail with idle chat. Sometimes I have more than 30 emails with maybe 
one that I can use.



------------------------------

From: "Randel Plowman" <randelplowman@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:41:21 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16421] Re: Garbage!!! 


>From: "Elizabeth B. Atwood" <elizuno@midcoast.com>
>Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
>To: BarenBoard <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
>Subject: [Baren 16413] Garbage!!!
>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:52:09 -0500
>
>Bareners All........
>
>Agreeing with April...........please stop all the junk along with your
>post. It is almost impossible to find the message.........ElizA
>
>I agree........ I am more interested in techniques and processes than

opening mail with idle chat. Sometimes I have more than 30 emails with maybe 
one that I can use.

Randel Plowman


------------------------------

From: "Charles and Gail Sheffield" <gsheffield@i-55.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:15:22 -0600
Subject: [Baren 16422] e-mail to list

April:

Tell us again what all that "unformatted" and "without quotes" stuff 
means, how to change it, and what affect it will have on our other 
e-mail, if any.  Would it solve the problem if everyone does like I do 
and, instead of using "Reply," just sends a new e-mail using the baren 
address in your address book?  If you have something to include from a 
previous post, you could just copy and paste.

Not-very-computer-sophisticated
Gail Sheffield
Covington, LA


------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:48:22 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16423] Re: chat with no substance 

I have been busy reformatting my hard drive - you never know what you'll
loose till you lose it - Came back to complaints about content - I want to
thank Jean for a wonderful description of Mario's workshop,  David Stone's
new site, Jack Reislands' Charles Bartlet Exhibit, Maria's print market.  As
usual - some great stuff - just read what you want.   Thanks to you all.
Bea

------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:02:31 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16424] Re: chat with no substance 

Maria, and other members who answered my query:

I just wanted you to know how much I really appreciated all your comments
about marketing prints.  They were all very valuable to me,and very helpful
as I try to plan my future artmaking activities.  There was a *lot* of
substance in those messages, and I thank you for it.

I for one am grateful that we can discuss things like this.  If the rules
say no talk of marketing or sales, then I won't ask questions....but if
they don't, why not?

Bobbi C.
- ------------


>So woodblock is all about process? Someone asked a question about marketing
>prints, we answered. Is this chat with no substance?
>Dang, yeah, let's cater to those valuable members of Baren, the lurkers who
>never contribute except to threaten to cease lurking when they don't hear
>what they want...
>I'm out of here!
>M
>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>Maria Arango
>Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
>http://www.1000woodcuts.com
>maria@mariarango.com
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: Sunnffunn@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:09:25 EST
Subject: [Baren 16425] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1646 

When I got my ar degree no business courses were offered.  We were taught art 
but not how to market it.  After the degree I went to take a summer school 
class at a different school on the business of art, it was canceled.  I 
believe there was almost n inerest in the course by the art students and 
without enrollment it could not be taught, sad they stick their head in the 
sand.
I have gone through some stuff here and wondered aloud to a friend who is 
supporting himself with his art.  He flat told me never sell an original if 
you can help it.  He thinks of the hand pulled print in the same category as 
all other copy mediums, here we had an argument for sure.  
He told me how to put my work into card form and some marketing strategies.  
He said i already had the start to make a living I just had to do it and that 
do it is through copies, like the giclee or even the copy machines or my own 
printer. 
So I came away feeling either i sell  and market like this or I get a job 
doing something else.
I think I will do the saturday market this summer and listen to the public 
and learn more.  Maria is silent here and she markets well!!!
Marilynn

------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:19:59 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16426] Re: chat with no substance 

 Bobbi C. wrote.....

>I for one am grateful that we can discuss things like this.  If the rules
>say no talk of marketing or sales, then I won't ask questions....but if
>they don't, why not?


I vote for no problem with these kind of postings.

Graham


------------------------------

From: "G. Wohlken" <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:05:04 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16427] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1647 


>> dead line on the fireman print is Jan 1,   
>> 

> 


Yikes, why did I think it came at the end of January?
Did anyone else think this?


> I am getting so much garbage mixed in with my Baren mail I can hardly find
> the good stuff. (I almost missed Jack's interesting review of the Honolulu
> show!)
> 
> I have written several times about sending mail UNFORMATTED and WITHOUT
> QUOTED MATERIAL, to no avail.
> 
> Is there any solution to this? It makes my subscription all but unreadable.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> April



April, as archivist I will join with you in this 
plea.  Bareners, please just send Baren stuff as 
PLAIN TEXT only.  If you click on "Preferences" 
found in the tool bar at the top of your mail 
program, you should find choices for how you want 
to send messages.  Please, please choose PLAIN 
TEXT.  You would not believe the messes I'm 
weeding through to put the readable stuff on line 
in the archives  .  You could help with this and I 
would  appreciate it almost more than anyone, (but 
reading the digests is nearly impossible some 
days, and that's when people like April (and 
others who've complained) have every right to feel 
frustrated).

Thanks for your help, Bareners.

Gayle
Ohio, USA



------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:43:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16428] Re: chat with no substance 

Maria,
This is why I love you, you just keep us focused...good girl.
Barbara


> So woodblock is all about process? Someone asked a question about

marketing

> prints, we answered. Is this chat with no substance?
> Dang, yeah, let's cater to those valuable members of Baren, the lurkers

who

> never contribute except to threaten to cease lurking when they don't hear
> what they want...
>




------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:48:55 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16429] Re: chat with no substance 

I don't know how this happened, but Marco's name is not Mario, but Marco. He
will no doubt laugh at this, but we should correct it. It is Marco Flavio
Marrinucci.....so there you go.
Barbara

I want to thank Jean for a wonderful description of Mario's workshop



------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:58 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16430] Re: chat with no substance <200112102051.FAA84968@ml.asahi-net.or.jp> 

>I don't know how this happened, but Marco's name is not Mario, but Marco. He
>will no doubt laugh at this, but we should correct it. It is Marco Flavio
>Marrinucci.....so there you go.
>Barbara
>


I just have to get in on this.

Marco, are you out there.
It seems I am not alone. I told you at two Boot Camps your name
should be Mario.

That's right folks I consistently called Marco by the wrong name.
How many times did you try to teach this old dog new tricks Mario.... opps


Graham/Sidney BC
An Island in the Pacific
Home of the Boot Camp
 

------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:43:26 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16431] Re: print market 

Hi Maria,

I'm going to eventually get around to resonding to all who answered my
query about marketing prints--promise!


>Yes, let's keep making prints because that is what we love to do, and,
>absolutely, let's educate the public at every chance we get. Incidentally,
>for this last task you have to be out there where the public hangs out.


OK, so how do you educate them?  I know your website is chock full of great
information on printmaking--is this enough?  There aren't many good shows
around here (maybe the printmakers in Austin will call me on this one <G>),
and I'm not as familiar with the gallery scene in this area as I used to
be.  But I'm not able right now to travel for shows, and so I'm hoping that
what I sell will be from my website, or by contacting galleries and
shipping to them directly.


>Noticeably, the audiences were careful,
>but see this helps us because they (the affluent) are cautious to make a
>very large purchase such as a painting in the several-K range, and find the
>prospect of buying two or three $300 woodcuts much more appealing. The
>not-so-affluent weren't going to buy art anyway.>>


I know a ew painters who are making good livings, but they're busting their
rears doing it.  And most of that is for commissions to designers, or
custom portraits.  I for one don't even want to think about shipping huge
canvases all over the country!


>In a couple of years of doing this thing full-time, building up a
>mailing-list and weeding out the dinky shows, you too can make a living
>selling woodcut prints (or any kind of fine prints).>


Thank you for confirming this for me.  but do you think you have to do
shows?  Could you make a halfway decent living from website sales
eventually, in your opinion?


>>>because I know and the

>audience will know as soon as I open my mouth, that I sell artist-produced
>original art.


But a question I keep asking myself is--does the audience care that it's
original?  I hope so, but I'm not sure...


>But I firmly believe that everyone, that includes the finest collectors and
>the most unknowing general audience--EVERYONE buys art for the image. Thomas
>Kinkade understood that very basic point, and hit the hearts of an unknowing
>America with lovely images.>>


LOL--a group of my friends have just been talking about Mr. Kinkade.  NO
matter what you think about him, he does sell by pulling those
heartstrings...


>The golf-scene dude is doomed, not us artists.


Yeah, how many golf scenes can you paint, anyway?


>So make images, hit your audience in the eyeball with good solid art, then
>explain to them that the bonus is that they just purchased a fine print. A
>print will never sell just because it is hand-printed and a chair will never
>sell because it is hand-crafted--both will sell if the folk holding the
>wallets like what they see. Make art, make it well; everyone will see the
>difference.


Good advice, Maria--thanks!

Bobbi C.


------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:49:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16432] Re: The market for prints? 


> They would rather run out to buy the latest Thomas  Kincaid offset
>complete with glitzy frame job for $700 and brag that they have  number
>750 out of 3500 made. >>


Hi Diane,

This is true, but I'm wondering--why?  If it's not the money, then is it
because of the supposed "collector" value?  Why wouldn't someone buy an
original print for that reason, too?  You would think that hand-pulled
prints would be worth more in the buyer's eyes, because it is *hand*
pulled.  Several of us on another list were talking about this, and the
concensus was that the public was being mislead about the investment value
of the Kinkade "prints".

<< I am at a local univeristy and their is great  prejudice against
printmakers in the other disciplines of painting and sculpture  because
those folks see printmaking as a craft.  Sorry for venting - but  people
need to make prints for the love of it not because it is the road to
wealth - the road to enlightenment maybe.>>

Printmaking is seen as craft, too?  Oh great.  I've been fighting that for
years, since til recently I've worked about 80% with fabric art--talk about
a stereotype! <G>

I don't think anyone's making prints because it's a road to wealth...but
for me, part of the fun of making art is seeing a buyer enjoy it enough to
buy it....I have enough artwork laying around here from year's past that
never sold...I don't want lots more.

Bobbi C.



------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:56:47 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16433] Marco not Mario 

Knew it was Marco - my fingers just made a mistake.  Sorry, Bea

------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:55:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16434] Re: The market for prints? 

Wanda wrote: << Marylhurst University is one of the schools on the cutting

>edge of teaching business management of an art career as one of their
>requirements to getting a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. A *big* step in
>the right
>direction, IMHO.>>


Definitely!  I have an art degree from the University of TX at Austin, and
graduated in 1981 with a B.A. in Studio Art, majoring in design and
textiles.  Did I get one speck of education about marketing?  Of course
not.  As a matter of fact, we were told that we'd better go ahead and get a
Master's so we could teach, because that was the only way we'd ever make
money in art!

Now that I'm on-line, and meeting other artists, I've found out--twenty
years later--that that's all a bunch of bologna!  Maybe my professors
didn't sell art, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some who do.  And
it took me this long to *meet* real artists who are making livings at their
art, and darn good ones, too.  (Of course, they aren't all hand-pulled
printmakers....LOL).

I think every art school/college should include information on marketing
and business.  I think one of the reasons that I haven't been more
successful at my art career is that I never got any training along those
lines.

Bobbi C.


------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:00:50 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16435] Re: The market for prints? 

 Bobbi C. Wrote.....

> It seems that many of you are successful at selling your
> prints from your websites...
> No not true in British Columbia or Ontario.


Oh, I'm sorry to hear that....


> I don't believe that John Q Public is over the scam of reproductions. 
>They don't trust prints is the feed back from high end galleries who have
>put them on the back burner. We have to do a major sales job on the
>reality of handmade works and talk up a storm with every one we meet. >>


Because buyers have been burned in the past?  If they buy directly from the
artists, though, doesn't that sort of ease their fear of being scammed?


> Yep its the sign of the times it seems. The dogged will survive and
>others will move on to other ways of making an income.  I recall in 1991
>and 1981 when the crunch came we lost many artist to "real" jobs....  I
>guess you can look at it as a form of attrition in our profession. Check
>and balance I guess.  >>


Well, I've had it with real jobs.  LOL  Luckily, I don't have to support
myself right now, so I do have a few years time before husband retires
early to spend building up my art business.. .


> This is the first year in 25 that I did not have an exhibition of work.
>Could see no point in spending .... $4 to $5 thousand bucks (Colour
>invitations, Mailing, Advertising, Wine & Cheese, etc etc .... to make a
>few hundred.  Tighten up the belt folks ... my bet is it will be worse
>that previous.  Sorry about the bad news but..... it is bullet time...  as
>in bite.  Graham    >>


Well, better to be prepared than to be blindsided, I always say.

Bobbi C.






------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:18:05 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16436] Re: The market for prints? 

Hello Professor! <G>

>My opinion is that the market for prints and other kinds of unique,
>original, authentic and creative works of art will be flat or fall off in
>the future. If there's one reason I think this forecast is correct it would
>be the effort called "art education."


Wow, you've really given me/us a lot to think about.  So, what can we as
artists do to educate the public?  Infiltrate the elementary and high
school art classes (heaven forbid), and teach 'em while they're still young
that original art is valuable?


>While many so-called "fine artists" languished in their comfort zones,
>teaching their students to spurn money, bookkeeping, Neanderthals,
>Philistines, etc., as educators they did a disservice.


Yep.  And like I've already mentioned, some of them (my profs.) even
discouraged us from even trying to sell.


> Where are the art educators when the Internet
>arrived, and the WWW offered another channel to compete with the world of
>trival pursuits, games, porn and bad news?


Well, there are on-line courses on the "how-tos" of art, but I haven't seen
any on the "whys" of buying original art.  Sounds like a job for a very
energetic writer.


>So, Bobbi, Yes, there is a market for fine art, but not fine art WORKS that
>don't work any more. It's still true that sales will occur almost only by
>face-to-face encounters between artist and the potential owner of a real
>thing, an authentic work like Maria's, Graham's, Marco's and so on and so
>forth.


Well, that's good news, I suppose.  However, it doesn't help those of us
who don't have good opportunities to meet the public in our areas, or those
who can't travel to shows or galleries, etc.


>There is still a chance. When users of new communications technologies (and
>this includes a lot of elementary school, middle, high school, continuing
>education, et. al.) can get 24/7 information on every aspect of art
>PROCESSES on-line, accurate, timely and networked with the actual people
>near them whom they can see face to face, then we could work effectively.


Sounds great in theory, but makes me tired just to think of putting
something like that in place. Guess the way to start is to include
information on our websites about our methods of working, etc.


>Looks like I goofed again--here I am writing a chapter for an online book,
>and this is a no-no in Web Netiquette. But, you never know, this may be my
>last signal. Thanks, Bobbi, for asking.


Well, I for one enjoyed it.  It makes a lot of sense, and once again shows
that education is the answer.  Heck, no problem....I'm *full* of questions!
<G>

Bobbi C.





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End of Baren Digest V17 #1648
*****************************