Baren Digest Sunday, 17 March 2002 Volume 18 : Number 1766 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:02:17 EST Subject: [Baren 17542] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 IN THE PAPER MAKING CLASSES I HAD IN GRAD SCHOOL THEY SAID THAT HAND MADE PAPER HAD NO GRAIN. MACHINE MADE PAPER HAD GRAIN. THE FIBERS LAY ON THE MOULD IN AN UNORDERED PATTERN THUS NO GRAIN. HAD A PROFFESIONAL HAND PAPER MAKER TELL ME THIS BOTH IN WESTERN AND JAPNESE PAPER MAKING. THE SHAPE OF THE MOULD AND DECKLE IN JAPANESE PAPER MAKING IS DIFFERENT AND THE FIBERS USED ARE DIFFERENT (KOZO VS COTTON, OR LININ IN WESTERN) BUT THE CONCEPT IS VERY MUCH THE SAME. JOHN CENTER ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:05:23 EST Subject: [Baren 17543] Re: 'Grain' in paper CHEAPER PAPERES ALL MOST ALL ARE MADE ON A MACHINE AND THEY DO IN FACT HAVE GRAIN. THIS IS BECAUSE THE MACHINE DIRECTS THE FIBERS IN ONE DIRECTION. NO CHEAP PAPER IS MADE BY HAND. JOHN ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:53:00 -1000 Subject: [Baren 17544] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 FurryPressII@aol.com wrote: > IN THE PAPER MAKING CLASSES I HAD IN GRAD SCHOOL THEY SAID THAT HAND MADE > PAPER HAD NO GRAIN. MACHINE MADE PAPER HAD GRAIN. THE FIBERS LAY ON THE > MOULD IN AN UNORDERED PATTERN THUS NO GRAIN. HAD A PROFFESIONAL HAND PAPER > MAKER TELL ME THIS BOTH IN WESTERN AND JAPNESE PAPER MAKING. THE SHAPE OF > THE MOULD AND DECKLE IN JAPANESE PAPER MAKING IS DIFFERENT AND THE FIBERS > USED ARE DIFFERENT (KOZO VS COTTON, OR LININ IN WESTERN) BUT THE CONCEPT IS > VERY MUCH THE SAME. > > JOHN CENTER Ouch! Please stop yelling. In hand paper making, it is possible to align the fibers more in one direction than the other through the rocking motion of the paper making mold. In western paper making, this action will create negligible grain, due to the relatively short fiber length. However, in Japanese paper making, the fibers are much longer, and the alignment of fibers is more noticeable. As David mentioned, the alignment is difficult to see under magnification, since it is a matter of a percent of the fibers more or less aligned along the grain, not all lined up in one direction. However, the difference is noticeable in handling the paper. This difference has been common knowledge to Oriental printers and scroll mounters for centuries, well before the introduction of machine made papers. Jack R. ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:52:18 +0900 Subject: [Baren 17545] Re: paper 'grain' ... John wrote: > In the paper making classes I had in grad school they said that > handmade paper had no grain ... Well I hate to disagree with such exalted authorities John, but I'm sorry, Japanese handmade paper exhibits radically different characteristics in the vertical and horizontal directions. Please just try this test: cut a couple of inch-wide strips from a sheet - one horizontally, and one vertically. Take each strip and try and pull it apart from each end. The strip cut against the grain will separate easily; the strip cut along the grain will be much more difficult to break. In the case of a good strong hosho, it will resist more than you could imagine ... (Ask JD!) Dave ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:16:29 EST Subject: [Baren 17546] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 Sorry was not yelling to me upper case is just upper case never understood the internet concept of uppercase as yelling i forgot to take it off cap lock but i like caps for some thing easier to read. i have made both eastern and western paper. funny i prefer machine made paper for printing anyway. only worry about grain when i am makeing artist books because i print dry. I don't think i could make a sheet of paper that was equal to arches or reives as quality hand made paper takes as much skill as any other art form john center please forgive me ------------------------------ From: "marilynn smih" Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:33:15 -0800 Subject: [Baren 17547] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1763 Dan Dew, if i caught this right somewhere you mentioned rolling ink , i think waterbased onto a linoblock. try akua Kolor, it rolls on and prints amazingly with a brayer and a lino block, waterbased. marilynn ------------------------------ From: Bette Wappner Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 23:32:25 -0500 Subject: [Baren 17548] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 Greetings this evening Pardon me, but have I missed a posting that pertains to this subject matter? I'm totally lost on this one. Someone please inform me of the details. I'd appreciate it. Bette Wappner > From: "Jean Eger Womack" > Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:04:57 -0800 > To: > Subject: [Baren 17537] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 > > Hi all, > Jeanne Chase, maybe the police burned down your studio because they > didn't like nudes! We have a lot of "Dirty Harry" types around here. > People are always talking about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth > around here. The security people were talking about that at Washington High > School when I taught there before Christmas. When I had carpal tunnel > syndrome back around 1990, the doctors let it go so long I had to have > operations on both wrists and the local supervisors wife was talking about > how in Saudi Arabia they cut off a person's hand for stealing. I suffered > from untreated bullemia for 30 years, while receiving medical treatment for > numerous infections from the county clinic. > Now the neighbor up the street is siccing his pound dog on my cats, > probably in retaliation for letting a pound dog get scratched on the nose by > one of my cats. I had purchased a pound dog who chases cats, unbeknownst to > me. They told me to put a fence around the dog to try to get the dog used > to the cats. So I went and bought a $79 wire fence. But nothing I did > would stop that terrier from trying to get to my cats. > I went up to talk to the neighbor and I said it was harassment and we > had gotten along fine with the neighbors until he moved in. He nodded his > head and then started to cry his crocodile tears and saying something about > the dogs, so I guess he is one of those animal rights activitists. We > rescued our cat from the nearby park, where someone had abandoned her out > in the park along with 15 kittens. I guess she pooped in the garden of the > Italian guy next door, who has a big Siberian husky whom he lets suffer all > summer without a haircut. (I mention that he is Italian becaue he has signs > all over his property saying Italian, Mafia, beware of the dog, etc.) Do > you see us going over there with a scissors, cutting his flowers down in > order to revenge the lack of summer hair-cut for his dog? No, we are > law-abiding people; at least we try to be. At least I try to be. > Of course, we are all following the horrible killer-dog trial in L.A., > horrified about how such a thing could happen. > I suggest you see the movie "Amelia" and let us know what you think of > it. > Yours in peace and fine printing. > Jean Eger Womack > e-mail: jeaneger@jeaneger.com > http://www.jeaneger.com ------------------------------ From: Graham Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:10:12 -0800 Subject: [Baren 17549] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 >Dan, >Using water based block inks intended for Western style printing is a >completely different animal than using the rice paste/watercolor method of >moku hanga. It will be interesting to see if you can get it to work. Since >Lino is a petroleum based product and, therefore, oily by nature, it doesn't >seem on the surface (pun alert!) that it will work, but who knows? maybe you >can get it to. Let us know how you fare - you could open a whole new world >of printmaking. The Dew Prints - do you like it? (groan) >Sharri A little moan to boot could help. Graham ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V18 #1766 *****************************