Baren Digest              Saturday, 23 March 2002      Volume 18 : Number 1772


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From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:47:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17623] Speedball inks 

Graham,
I have to differ with you on the speedball ink thing. I have been using them
for many years with students in the schools and some of these pieces I have
are over 10 years old and have not faded to the eye.

I will grant that they are not as highly pigmented as artist grade colors,
but they are just pigment suspended in gum arabic and glyceine or something
to keep them wet. They roll out wonderfully well and are so easy to work
with. So even though you would not use them, I don't think they deserve a
bad rap. The less pigment in them would be reason to avoid them, unless you
didn't mind this. As artists we use many kinds of supplies and I have to
tell you that speedball ink is great for what it does. I am always glad I
know Dan and that his work is so good and looks so well printed. I can tell
students that not many artists use them, but I know one that uses them
almost exclusively. I leave it up to the students to decide what they will
use, giving them all the information I have about each kind of ink. I think
speedball might come out with colors that have more pigment at some future
date and then everyone will want to use them, especially for mixed media
work.

Dan,
A side note. Have you tried getting an old print wet to see if the pigment
moves? I know this depends on the paper also, but it might be wise to "fix"
prints with a bit of spray, I know it moves a lot if the paper gets wet
again with the paper I am using in the schools.
Best to all,
Barbara


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From: Daniel Dew <ddew@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:01:26 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17624] Re: Speedball inks 

I have gotten some of my prints wet, no problem. You are right though, the
better the paper, the less problems.  I use Hosho and Rives almost
exclusively now unless printing in oil. I have decided to not speak on the
Speedball subject, easier to let people live with their OPINIONS than try to
educate, especially when it is apparent they don't want to learn, only
criticize.

Daniel L. Dew
Suncoast Equipment Funding Corporation
http://www.dandew.com/
ddew@tampabay.rr.com


> From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <bemason@concentric.net>


> Subject: [Baren 17623] Speedball inks
> 


> Dan,
> A side note. Have you tried getting an old print wet to see if the pigment
> moves? 


> Barbara
> 



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From: GraphChem@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:35:24 EST
Subject: [Baren 17625] Re: cleaning blocks 



The Graphic W/S inks are a glycol based product. They are neither watercolor 
or acrylic - but are closer to watercolor in many ways. They are a "water 
wash up" ink. I do not recommend thinning with water, unless you want the 
mess that occurs (some actually like the effect on monoprints, but......).

Dean



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From: Princess Rashid <prashid@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:08:49 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17626] Memorial Print 

Hi Barbara,

Just wanted to know did you receive my print yet?

Princess
Jax, FL




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From: John and Jan Telfer <jtelfer@iinet.net.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 02 23:11:46 -0000
Subject: [Baren 17627] Re: Coming to Canada and America 

Dear Bareners,

I would like to let the Vancouver, Seattle and Los Angeles Bareners know 
that my Travel Itenary for June is finalised and here is a short 
summary...please email me off line if I can meet with you en route.

>From Australia...Arrive Vancouver 12:50PM....29th May...another very long 
birthday!

In Vancouver I will be staying at: 
Best Western Downtown Vancouver 718 Drake St (PH 604-669-9888). Handy if 
the buses are still on strike!!!

Bootcamp 31st May to 8th June to Seattle to stay there with Barbara and 
Dennis Patera and coming back to Bootcamp 2...I think on the Seattle to 
Victoria ferry, but haven't made those arrangements yet.

RETURN 
Monday 24th June
Depart Vancouver 10:32 AM
Arrive Los Angeles 1.32 PM

Accommodation LA - Best Western - The Mayfair Hotel, 1256 West Seventh 
Street LA (PH 213 484 9789) for the nights of the 24th and 25th June.

On Tuesday I have a tour booked for the Paul Getty Museum and all day LA 
tour and on Wednesday an all day Universal Studios Tour.

I have nothing booked for PM on Monday 24th or the three evenings!! I can 
sleep on the plane home....13 and a half hours from LA to Melbourne.

Wednesday 26th June
Depart Los Angeles 11.40 PM
****  Twilight Zone ***  miss one day **** Do not go past 'Go' do not 
collect $200.

Friday 28th June Arrive Melbourne 8 AM
Sunday 30th June Depart Melbourne 8:25 AM Arrive Perth 10.25 AM 

I do hope to meet you while I am in Canada and the US...I am still 
keeping my fingers crossed for 2003.

Cheers,
Jan

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From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:23:27 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17628] Re: Speedball inks 


Well maybe "below student grade" was a little severe... but not by 
much. It did get the attention and that was the reason for the 
statement.

I have never thought of the members as being students. I prefer to 
think of them as aspiring.
The student bracket I think of, is Kindergarten to Grade 12, which is 
the group that should use student grade material. Within that bracket 
there will be exceptions.

You have indicated ...."I have are over 10 years old and have not 
faded to the eye". I consider this to be a "wink of the eye" in the 
time frame of fine art.

But as you said "not as highly pigmented as artist grade", "The less 
pigment in them would be reason to avoid them, unless you didn't mind"

This in itself is a self full filling reason not to use them. The 
manufacture has put something into the product to give it volume that 
cuts down the lack of pigment used.  What is it?  In watercolours it 
is chalk giving the product a more opaque chalky look.

I won't spend a pile of time creating a piece of work and have it 
less than its very best when I am finished. The other factor is that 
just maybe the piece you create, survives the test of time, and has 
the potential of being a masterpiece. (Gawd we can only hope and 
pray) and not make it because of student (cheap) quality materials. 
For me it is not worth the risk and I have never recommended anything 
less to the people I have had the pleasure of instructing.

"I think speedball might come out with colors that have more pigment 
at some future
date and then everyone will want to use them".  Yes that might make a 
difference in the usage by people that will only use the best for 
there work.  There is the question about permanency and archival 
which plagues student quality material.

Now in defence of using the student quality....  If the peice you are 
working on requires volumes of material then working up the piece 
with cheap stuff  .... ie using newsprint to establish the design and 
the student quality pigments to set colour harmony, is in keeping 
with my frugal Scottish heritage.

I will leave you with this thought.
"The pride in my work has to include using the very best materials 
available". to do anything less would be cheating me as well as my 
customers.

Regards
Graham


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From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:26:53 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17629] Re: Memorial Print 

Yes, it is here..thanks so much.
Barbara


- ----- Original Message ----- 


> Hi Barbara,
> 
> Just wanted to know did you receive my print yet?
> 
> Princess
> Jax, FL
> 
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:34:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17630] speedball ink again 

Graham,
I appreciate your opinions but not everyone is in the position to buy artist
grade supplies. We use what is available for us where we are. I think the
best example of this was seeing the prints from Uganda. They were done with
the worst paint and ink on the most unusual material  and they were so
wonderful. I think some of their quality would have been lost with perfect
ink and perfect paper. Fabulous talent shines through student grade ink and
paper, or in the case of the Uganda prints, pellon and paper sacks.

I do agree it is a concern wanting the customer to be happy in 10 or 20
years, but on the other hand, they are getting good art at reasonable
prices. An explaination of why some art is more expensive than other art can
certainly take in the cost of professional supplies and longevity of
pigments and paper.

I think we are going down different paths. You are looking at making living
by selling your work to discerning collectors who are very knowledgable
about printmaking. I am trying to give everyone I come in contact with a
printmaking experience. I want them to use every ink and every process. I
want them to develop new ways to use old stuff and new stuff in the process.
I think in my context all media is good. There are not bad materials, just
different varieties of materials. Some materials work better than others for
some processes and this is where experience comes in. However creative
people using things in unusual ways invent some amazing new processes and
new art materials come from these lucky accidents. The monotype release
agent I use in the schools is a good example. My friend was having trouble
getting her work to release from her plate and kept trying to find something
that was more waterloving to put on the plate first. So here we have a
wonderful invention that makes printmaking portable where it needed a press
before. Moku hanga excluded here folks.

So everyone using speedball ink can be ware it is less pigmented, but this
does not make it "bad" just less pigmented.
Best to all,
Barbara


------------------------------

From: Chris Bremmer <cbremmer@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:38:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 17631] Re: speedball ink again 

Barbara,

EXCELLENT answer! Couldn't have been more well said.

Chris

- --- Lee and Barbara Mason <bemason@concentric.net> wrote:

> Graham,
> I appreciate your opinions but not everyone is in the
> position to buy artist
> grade supplies. We use what is available for us where we
> are. I think the
> best example of this was seeing the prints from Uganda.
> They were done with
> the worst paint and ink on the most unusual material  and
> they were so
> wonderful. I think some of their quality would have been
> lost with perfect
> ink and perfect paper. Fabulous talent shines through
> student grade ink and
> paper, or in the case of the Uganda prints, pellon and
> paper sacks.
> 
> I do agree it is a concern wanting the customer to be
> happy in 10 or 20
> years, but on the other hand, they are getting good art
> at reasonable
> prices. An explaination of why some art is more expensive
> than other art can
> certainly take in the cost of professional supplies and
> longevity of
> pigments and paper.
> 
> I think we are going down different paths. You are
> looking at making living
> by selling your work to discerning collectors who are
> very knowledgable
> about printmaking. I am trying to give everyone I come in
> contact with a
> printmaking experience. I want them to use every ink and
> every process. I
> want them to develop new ways to use old stuff and new
> stuff in the process.
> I think in my context all media is good. There are not
> bad materials, just
> different varieties of materials. Some materials work
> better than others for
> some processes and this is where experience comes in.
> However creative
> people using things in unusual ways invent some amazing
> new processes and
> new art materials come from these lucky accidents. The
> monotype release
> agent I use in the schools is a good example. My friend
> was having trouble
> getting her work to release from her plate and kept
> trying to find something
> that was more waterloving to put on the plate first. So
> here we have a
> wonderful invention that makes printmaking portable where
> it needed a press
> before. Moku hanga excluded here folks.
> 
> So everyone using speedball ink can be ware it is less
> pigmented, but this
> does not make it "bad" just less pigmented.
> Best to all,
> Barbara
> 




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From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:06:23 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17632] Re: speedball ink again 

Liked your reply, Barbara!  Just because it's 'Speedball' doesn't make it 
'good' or 'bad', 'archival' or 'fugitive'.  As with all inks, regardless of 
relative 'strength' or pigment density (I'm with the majority, here -- I 
prefer more pigment per unit volume in my colors than Speedball generally 
supplies), the lightfastness of each ink depends on the pigments 
used.  Some speedball water soluble inks have excellent lightfast 
characteristics and some do not (same as with ALL ink 
manufacturers!).  Lightfast characteristics are determined primarily by the 
pigments employed.  Most manufacturers consider their color formulae to be 
proprietary, but will indicate in some way the degree to which their colors 
are affected by light over time.  Anyone interested can review Speedball's 
lightfast ratings here:
http://www.speedballart.com/blockprintcat.pdf

- -- Mike Lyon

At 09:34 AM 3/22/2002 -0800, Barbara Mason wrote:

>Graham,
>I appreciate your opinions but not everyone is in the position to buy artist
>grade supplies. We use what is available for us where we are. I think the
>best example of this was seeing the prints from Uganda. They were done with
>the worst paint and ink on the most unusual material  and they were so
>wonderful.                        <SNIP>
>So everyone using speedball ink can be ware it is less pigmented, but this
>does not make it "bad" just less pigmented.
>Best to all,
>Barbara


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

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From: Louise Cass <lcass@primus.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:43:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17633] Re: speedball ink again 

Hi Barbara, Graham et al

It looks like I've raised a hornet's nest with my problem which turns out
to be
that residing in distant Eastern Canada - our suppliers are selling old or
imperfect
stock - I can't believe how hard it is to obtain supplies - e.g.no one so
far in this
large city has even heard of 'rewetting' glue (I'm trying to buy YES or
something 
like it here - it's become a mission at this point) however the Ontario
College of Art printmaking dept may come up with something as my letter was
forwarded to that 
dept.but it is unknown at the Open Studio (for printmakers)!

I must say I like the look of the Graph Chem water base black - it's a
beautiful
rich colour as opposed to Speedball and just as with Winsor Newton artist's
colours altho' twice as expensive because of the pigmentation it goes twice
as far.
However as Barbara has said so well any material used can be effective - we
can
also have all kinds of rotten art produced with exquisite materials. I must
add that
when I've taught children we've found that better quality materials are often
easier for them to explore with - we have to go by our own judgement and needs
and of course pocket books! 

I just want to add that I've found something that suits me with the Graph Chem
Water Base inks in that I hand colour (with WN [artists] watercolours)  and
when
dry the ink won't bleed whereas the Speedball inks do.

Back to experimenting with chine colle examples of which will be up on my site
in a week or two - it's undergoing a renovation

Thanks to everyone for their input - I'm now spending too much precious
time on
the mail but it's all very interesting and helpful.I hope I'll be able to
get to Kansas
City to meet you all! 




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From: "DRAGO G KISIC" <kisic@PRODIGY.NET>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:18:17 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17634] Re: Need advice for printing on heavyweight paper 

Need advice for printing on heavyweight paper hello!!!!!!!! I need your 
advice for buying a good press, which is supossed to be the best brand? 
for xilography and intaglio, thank you, maria.


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From: Myron Turner <mturner@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:32:26 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17635] Re: cleaning blocks 

Hi Dean,

This doesn't actually help with the original problem.  Louise found that 
she had trouble cleaning off her block and that when she used enough water 
to get the block clean, it warped.

Any suggestions?

Myron

At 09:35 AM 22/03/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>The Graphic W/S inks are a glycol based product. They are neither 
>watercolor or acrylic - but are closer to watercolor in many ways. They 
>are a "water wash up" ink. I do not recommend thinning with water, unless 
>you want the mess that occurs (some actually like the effect on 
>monoprints, but......).
>
>Dean



------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:37:32 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17636] speedball ink and pigments. 


Louise wrote.....
It looks like I've raised a hornet's nest with my problem which turns out,

Not at all.  Just a discussion that is important to express two side 
of the situation.
Both side are correct and are of value. Different strokes for 
different folks as they say.  As individuals grow with there work so 
does the expectations for their materials.
I felt that many people doing the exchange prints would be interested 
in using a higher grade product.

I was interested in your statement.  "(with WN [artists] watercolours)  and
when dry the ink won't bleed whereas the Speedball inks do.
That surprises me and strengthens my case....  Barbara, do you know 
about this problem with Speedball?  What is your experience.

I must say I like the look of the Graph Chem water base black - it's a
beautiful rich colour as opposed to Speedball and just as with Winsor 
Newton artist's
colours altho' twice as expensive because of the pigmentation it goes 
twice as far.

Don't overlook Rowney's products ... they are excellent.

I have used the following simile many times when I teach  .... You 
can purchase cheap paint, painting the walls two or three times to 
get the results .... or .... you can by the expensive paint and get 
the job done with one coat.  Saves hours of time and use less paint 
all boiling down to savings.

Have you considered using Powdered Pigments.  Mike mentioned he likes 
a pigments that has high saturation of colour  .... These will give 
you just that with all degrees of control.

Have you looked at the page on my site re pigments. You can order 
them direct.  I have used these for all my work and vouch for them 
100%. Hey and the price is right.

Louise, did you get an answer and solution about those pine plates that warped?

Regards
Graham



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End of Baren Digest V18 #1772
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