Baren Digest              Wednesday, 26 June 2002      Volume 19 : Number 1876


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From: "Bill and/or Lynda Ritchie" <ritchie@seanet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:33:35 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18467] Not advertising 

I thank Maria Arango for reading my book, AND enjoying it for the right
reasons.

Small correction, it's not out of print. Amazon.com sells it, as does
Borders Books, plus myself via my Web site, www.artsport.com.

Most important to Bareners is you computer savvy people can read it free
(and print it, too, probably) on line in .pdf format (Acrobat).

Start at http://www.artsport.com/apasaebk.html.


------------------------------

From: "Gillyin Gatto" <gillying@Maineline.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:42:59 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18468] Ritchie's book/artists prints 

"you can preset your spending limit........"

Maria-  can you mention what you had to pay for   Bill Ritchie's book?
so we would know  WHAT to set a s a "spending limit" at AMAZON waiting list?


in regard to the discussion on whether the artist or a print shop did the
actual work-
                            in my  humble and personal opinion
 an artist who paints a  painting
that is turned into a woodcut by master carvers
is not a woodcut artist.
  tho it is done
 and usually generates some substantial  income

i have heard of IMP   but question wether it means,
  as does the  latin abbreviation PINXT  ,
  that the artist drew it,carved it and printed it,  herself
all three-

 I had thought that IMP left out one or more of those ??

gillyin   in machias maine usa


------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:01:46 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18469] RE: Not advertising 


> Small correction, it's not out of print. Amazon.com sells it, as does
> Borders Books, plus myself via my Web site, www.artsport.com.
>
> Most important to Bareners is you computer savvy people can read it free
> (and print it, too, probably) on line in .pdf format (Acrobat).
>
> Start at http://www.artsport.com/apasaebk.html.


Thanks for the correction, Bill.
Gillyn, I pre-set at $25 and paid $19.95 which is what the book has marked
on the back. My copy was new, not used.
M

PS
I know we are all a bit edgy when self-promoting on the list, but I think
this can be differentiated as a resource for all to benefit from, rather
than an ad for a product. The same goes, in my humble opinion, for Dean
Clark's valuable posts about availability of various products at Graphic
Chemical and other posts of that nature. If it potentially benefits the
whole list I feel it's worth posting.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>



------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan@uvic.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:27:50 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18470] Re: What is Baren 

 Well, as a newcomer, I do not know why Graham was banned from the list. But 
frankly, I cannot understand the reasons for banning him from the KC 
gathering. He is one of the better people about in traditional woodblock 
print making, with lots of knowledge to share. If at least part of the 
purpose of the gathering is to disseminate and share knowledge, then it is 
foolish to exclude him. He may poke your balloons, and certainly he carries 
a few target balloons himself, but he will not steal your images. At the 
risk of offending folks, I find this whole thing to be petty and childish.

My 2 cents ......... Charles

At 02:28 AM 6/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>What is Baren.
>
>Though I have been a member of the list serve for a couple of years, I am
>not totally sure what the answer is.  I thought it was an open organization
>that was devoted to the promotion of relief printing and specifically
>Hanga.  I say open because the group has a very unique mix of members and I
>thought the dynamic was so alive, it was much more than just web chatter.
>As the group grew and developed leadership, I sensed that the time was
>coming when it would become as dynamic in the real world as it was in the
>virtual.  With the advent of an upcoming conference, I was really excited
>that the group might leave behind some of the distracting things I
>sometimes read on the list serve and really fulfill its mission in a new
>way.
>
> I do not know why it hit me so hard but this really struck me as odd
>
>Only Baren Forum members in good standing may register and/or attend.
>Perhaps you and Marnie would like to visit Kansas City some other time?
>
>This really makes Baren sound like a social club for the few and not an
>open organization whose main focus is on the printmaking.  I have been
>around enough to know why Graham is banned from the list serve and have no
>problems with it, but a conference is  different than a list serve.  I
>really do support Baren and think there is so much potential for Baren
>outside of the virtual world but I think it is very important to weight the
>overall goals of the organization to the personal dynamics of its
>membership.
>
>Greg Carter
>



------------------------------

From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:10:06 -0500
Subject: [Baren 18471] Re: Yes ! It's Christmas in Chicago! 06/25/2002 11:11:54 AM 

Yes, my LPE's are here too....well actually at home and I am at work
now...a good time was had by all at the Rodriguez household while opening
the package last night!

Thanks to all the contributing artists and specially to Rudolph for his
labor,  coordination and additional prints.

On HF....I must admit I am not among the most educated when it comes to
evaluating abstract art or for that matter any type of art...a few college
courses in painting, drawing & Primitive art is all I have under by name.
So I go with gut feeling and wether a work moves me or causes me to
reflect. The links I posted last week on Frankenthaler where not indicative
of my likes or dislikes of her work, just info I thought others might be
interested in pursuing on their own.  I don't know enough about the works
to put out an opinion.

I have read (and  highly recommend ) two books on this "collaboration"
topic... "Ken Tyler - Master Printer" and the other is called "Gemini
G.E.L.". Both of these books go into lot of detail on the goingons at the
large studios that Tyler operated. A lot of detail into the working
relationships between famous artists (Albers, Stella, Frankenthaler,
etc...) and the master printmakers. Detail  info on the making of some very
well known prints. Good reading. Both books were available at my local
library.  There is also a book on Tamarind Studios available.

thanks........Julio Rodriguez (Skokie, Illinois)


------------------------------

From: jimandkatemundie@juno.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:11:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 18472] Re: Helen Frankenthaler 

As this discussion moved along I remembered that I had a catalog of Ms.
Frankenthaler's work on my shelf -- _Helen Frankenthaler: Prints_
(published by the National Gallery of Art & Harry N. Abrams, Inc.).  This
was a book my wife picked up a couple of years ago as she has always been
much more engaged by color field painting/printing than myself (though
like others on this forum I must admit that there is a certain
tranquility in those huge pieces done by that pesky Mark Rothko --
paintings which really must be seen in person to be truly appreciated). 
The catalog I now hold in my hot little hands is from the 1993 exhibition
that toured the National Museum (Washington DC), the Museum of Fine Arts
(Boston MA) and others.

As I flip through the pages, I am reminded of many of my first responses
to Frankenthaler's work -- the whole range from "Wow!" to "Bor-ring!" 
Many of her lithographs are gorgeous, as are some of the monotypes, where
as others leave me absolutely cold.  And then there is the conundrum of
the woodcuts.  Upon first glance they appear to be nothing special; but
closer examination reveals a minute layering of subtle colors that is
extraordinary for is lushness and deceptive simplicity.  Yes, many will
say, "Well, she didn't print that!" And that is true enough, but like all
good collaborations with a master printer, she closely followed and
directed the process.  

Regarding 1983's "Cedar Hill", Ruth E. Fine writes in the catalog's main
essay 'Frankenthaler's Romance with Printmaking':

        "... Cedar Hill's original source was an acrylic painting on
paper that was sent to Kyoto to be used as the         model for
preliminary cutting and for printing ... with water-based colors in the
traditional Japanese                 manner.  Rejecting early proofs sent
by master printer Tadashi Toda, Frankenthaler then traveled to
        Kyoto to work with him for almost a month.  Using some elements
from her original composition and         some blocks that had already
been cut, she essentially moved forward into a radically restructured
        idea.  She took thirteen mahogany plywood (an unusual choice in
Japan) and linden blocks through
        an elaborate cutting and proofing process, creating ... [a] vast
... number of proofs ... en route to                 achieving the
glorious luminosity of Cedar Hill's striated color field printed on a
hand-made kozo fiber 
        paper tinted a faint pink with vegetable dye."

The catalog thoughtfully places the original painting side by side with
the finished print, revealing the final product as a completely different
animal.  Small elements of the original remain, but the color and
composition have been altered completely.  Whether or not the result is
"glorious" I leave to others to decide, but I must admit that it is
interesting.

I should point out that the woodcuts I respond to most in Frankenthaler's
body of work are those she made just prior to "Cedar Hill" -- a series
entitled "Essence Mulberry" (1977) and several untitled woodcuts from
1980 that sometimes incorporate hand touches with crayon.  The "Essence
Mulberry" prints reveal bold woodgrain patterns within deeply colored
fields, offset and balanced by sizable expanses of raw gampi paper. 
1980's "Cameo" feels like one of James MacNeil Whistler's nocturnes. 

Could Frankenthaler has achieved these prints without the assistance of
master printers?  Unlikely.  In this regard, I see this as the perfect
marriage of artist and printer(s) -- individuals coming together with an
idea for an image and allowing it to be changed and modified through the
processes of discussion and printing.  This is not simply the case of
someone walking into a master printer and saying, "Take this drawing and
turn it into a high priced lithograph.  I will return in week to sign
them."   This laissez faire approach is probably the norm, but I don't
think one could accuse Frankenthaler of foisting such a fraud on the
public.


Regards,
James Mundie
http://missioncreep.com/mundie/index.htm

------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:51:13 -0500
Subject: [Baren 18473] Re: Helen Frankenthaler 

The Frankenthaler prints I've seen have been MASTER works !!  Incredible 
printing!  Many are HUGE and appear to be layered paper and pigment -- very 
DENSE color, very sculptural surface.  Hold the interest day after day and 
year after year.  More and more with each viewing.  Really wonderful and 
amazing objects!  Also very evocative.

Mike

  At 10:36 PM 6/24/2002 -0700, Wanda wrote:

>As a mostly (well, completely) representative image maker rather than an 
>abstract
>image maker - I must admit that I truly *loved* the woodblock print "Cedar 
>Hill".
>I haven't seen it in person - nor have I seen any of her work in person. 
>But, I
>certainly will if I get a chance! We are all free to like or dislike 
>whatever we
>wish - but let's not be afraid to discuss it!
>
>Wanda


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

------------------------------

From: "Diane Tigue" <dtigue@kscable.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:24:23 -0500
Subject: [Baren 18474] Re: What is Baren  

i repeat my feeling that baren is intimidating - instead of getting the
feeling you are talking to artists I find a headmaster's tone creeps in.
Diane
- ----- Original Message -----


From: "Charles Morgan" 

> Well, as a newcomer, I do not know why Graham was banned from the list...


> At 02:28 AM 6/25/02 -0400, Greg Carter wrote:

> >What is Baren.
> >
 I thought it was an open organization...


> >... I do not know why it hit me so hard but this really struck me as odd
> >
> >Only Baren Forum members in good standing may register and/or attend.
> >Perhaps you and Marnie would like to visit Kansas City some other time?
> >This really makes Baren sound like a social club for the few and not an
> >open organization whose main focus is on the printmaking.  I have been
> >around enough to know why Graham is banned from the list serve and have no
> >problems with it, but a conference is  different than a list serve.  I
> >really do support Baren and think there is so much potential for Baren
> >outside of the virtual world but I think it is very important to weight the
> >overall goals of the organization to the personal dynamics of its
> >membership.
> >
> >Greg Carter
> >

>



------------------------------

From: Sharri LaPierre <Barebonesart@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:48:02 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18475] Re: Baren Digest V19 #1875 

.John,

We seem to have gone to different schools - Durer may have done his 
early prints, I won't argue that point, but I believe several scholars 
have proven without a doubt that he did not do the ones referred to as 
his mature work. Hardly anyone did in those days, guilds as we know 
them, or not. They still had the carvers, the printers and the artists 
who did the original drawings.  The point is, those works are held up as 
the pinnacle of prints - something for us all to aspire to, and I don't 
think anyone will dispute the fact that they are marvelous, or take 
anything away from Durer because he didn't do his own carving or 
printing.  I was just trying to say that no one should short change 
Frankenthaler because she doesn't carve or print her own blocks. The 
work is still wonderful, and strictly from her creative mind. As anyone 
who has worked with a Master Printer will attest, the artist is still 
the one in control, and as such, is the Supreme Dictator.  It is not a 
"collaborative work" in the sense of two or more artists working on an 
image.  And, that is probably enough on that subject :>)

To everyone in the large print exchange - WOW! You really gotta see 
these works in person. Seeing them on a computer screen  doesn't even 
come close to the real thing. Sometimes it is a disappointment when you 
see the real thing - they can appear to be more skillfully executed than 
they are, but that is not true here. Every single print is wonderfully 
special. Thanks to all involved, and especially to Rudolf for his 
patience and competence in pulling this off; it was a very time (and 
space) consuming effort.


Sharri


------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:10:36 -0700
Subject: [Baren 18476] membership in Baren 

Dear beloved Baren members,

To take a class at a University you have to be an admitted student in good
standing.
To participate in Baren exchanges you have to be a member of Baren. To
participate in an activity organized by Baren, you also have to be a member
of Baren. This policy or whatever you wish to call it, is no different from
other organizations, however loosely formed and open.
It is a wide wide world with plenty of experts in every discipline, Hanga is
no different and we will have plenty of expertise in KC to benefit the
attending members. Everyone in the world is free to start their own
organized activities and invite whomever they please under whatever policies
and rules they deem necessary to keep the thing reasonably civil. As the
organizers, we do what we can to assure the event will be enjoyable and
beneficial to _everyone_ attending.

As far as Baren being intimidating, sometimes groups are intimidating.
Sometimes the world is unpleasant. My personal policy is: when I don't like
where I am, I get out. Baren isn't imposed on anyone, it just exists for
those who like being here. It's a great forum. It's a great group of people
who occasionally disagree. Baren is a wealth of information that is there
for those who want it. Baren is composed of people that, for the most part,
have never met each other and it is amazing that we are able to get along at
all, if you think about it. Like every other group in the great wide
internet, nobody holds your hand or makes you feel better with a lot of
personal attention. There are all types of personalities, modified by the
naturally cold feel of e-mail messaging, and I frankly think it is a miracle
that _every_ conversation doesn't end up in insults. Many other forums
degrade every thread to the point of insults, the moderator steps in, end of
thread--everyone friends again. It is E-MAIL from strangers. I can think of
a jack-rabbit that visited my camp last weekend as being intimidating when
he started to go through my food bag, but e-mail?

Baren can be likened to a conference on (mostly) woodblock printmaking. You
sign up for a conference and you listen to things that interest you and
overhear a lot of things that don't interest you or that you take issue
with. Like a conference (or convention, we call them conferences in
academia), you have to be a member to participate. A member of the American
College of Sports Medicine, the American Psychological Association, the Beer
Drinkers and Guzzlers of the World... Nobody off the street is allowed to
just barge in and "visit" because the organizers spent a pretty good chunk
of their time carefully putting the programs together and inviting the
speakers or workshop teachers for the benefit of the members. Most members
attend a few sessions, see their colleagues, eat free breakfast and buy a
few things from the exhibitor's display.

Most members don't spouse every single view of every other member. THAT is
what makes conferences fascinating and THAT is what makes having an ongoing
virtual conference an unbelievable resource for knowledge and motivation,
possible only through the magic of the internet. As I said, most of the time
people are civil but e-mail has a way of not showing the tongue-in-cheek and
the smile. Words can be cold which is why I joke about jack-rabbits. As in a
real conference, you find yourself liking some people and instantly
disliking others without any real knowledge of who that person really is. As
in a real conference, you find yourself "hanging out" with the same people
year after year and avoiding those who you find abrasive. As in a real
conference, if you lurk in the shadows and avoid everyone, you will get the
same in return and will feel avoided. The realm of the conference and the
knowledge and opportunity it provides is just too vast and many people feel
lost. Come on out and shake hands with everyone; raise your hand and state
your opinion in a civil manner; say a few things about yourself. Hop right
in to get the most benefit. A few years go by and you have real and dear
friends, even if you have only met them a few times or even once, or never.

Interestingly the analogy carries over even in troubles. As in a real
conference, enemies are also made in the virtual world. In every conference
I attended there were speakers with vastly differing points of view.
Sometimes the sessions degraded into a "bucking of horns" between members or
speakers. The moderator stepped in and ended the scrimmage (hopefully)
before it degenerated into something personal and ugly. I have seen people
"step outside" where a real bucking of horns took place (hey, Exercise
Physiologists are passionate about their carbo-loading techniques). Every
conference I have attended also has "professional dissenters" who attend
sessions with the sole purpose of disrupting. They apply for speaker gigs
and never get them. They disagree with everyone, especially the older
respected professors, as they have their own theories about practically
every subject and make it their lives goal to assure that everyone else is
discredited so that the public is not "misinformed." Eventually they get
kicked out. To everyone's delight I have seen the police take one such
individual out in cuffs.

The most important point is that the conference, and in this case, Baren,
will go on through thick and thin. Baren exists now as an entity, it is
"something." Probably it is different things to different people and, corny
as it may sound, Baren is whatever you make it. There is no objective
definition of a virtual group of dedicated printmakers helping each other
make prints--or perhaps that describes it best, if a description is
important. A true passion for woodblock/woodcut printmaking binds us
together, everything else is superfluous and can be discarded.

I like it here. In life there are few places where you feel you belong.
Baren is a wonder full place.

Health to all,
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "Diane Tigue" <dtigue@kscable.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 18477] Re: membership in Baren 

Maria, as ever, sets us straight. Diane




------------------------------

From: Shireen Holman <shireenh@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:08:53 -0400
Subject: [Baren 18478] Re: Helen Frankenthaler 

It seems to me that the important thing about a work of art is the 'art', 
not the artist. If, in order to create a work to look the way you want to, 
you enlist the help of experts in certain areas, you may end up with a much 
more successful work than you could have made on your own. For example, I 
made an artist's book with text. I made the paper, cut the woodblocks, 
printed the woodblocks, but I know nothing about letterpress. So I worked 
with a letterpress artist; we went over the details of how I wanted the 
text to look, what colours I wanted to go with the prints on each page, 
etc., and he advised me and printed all the text for me. The Japanese 
woodblock artists that everyone admires worked in collaboration on all 
their prints, and the prints are beautiful and are admired for what they 
are. People don't say that since Hokusai didn't cut his own blocks or print 
the prints the work is nothing but reproduction and therefore of lesser 
value or quality. It's true that there are artists who do sell just plain 
reproductions and call them limited editions, but we aren't talking about 
these people. Artists who work in collaboration with master printers can 
create wonderful work. In some cases maybe it's the spirit of collaboration 
itself, the shared excitement, the shared ideas, that ends up creating a 
great work of art.
Shireen

At 11:51 AM 6/25/02 -0500, you wrote:

>The Frankenthaler prints I've seen have been MASTER works !!  Incredible 
>printing!  Many are HUGE and appear to be layered paper and pigment -- 
>very DENSE color, very sculptural surface.  Hold the interest day after 
>day and year after year.  More and more with each viewing.  Really 
>wonderful and amazing objects!  Also very evocative.
>
>Mike


***********************************************
Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist
email: shireenh@earthlink.net
http://www.shireenholman.com
***********************************************



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End of Baren Digest V19 #1876
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