Baren Digest Thursday, 4 July 2002 Volume 20 : Number 1886 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:16:15 EDT Subject: [Baren 18616] "rice" paper perhaps what Mike got a hold of was the type of paper used for sumi-e painting, which I have been doing a lot of! I believe some of these pads or rolls of paper do actually say "rice paper" on them, even though it is a misnomer, they are not made out of rice. This paper does not have sizing, which causes some nice effects w/sumi painting, but I would not use it for hanga, as the ink would spread all over the place. It would also fall apart pretty easily if you attempted to print hanga-style with it. best wishes Sarah ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:44:44 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18617] Re: Exchange 15 and Hanga Dear Jack, Probably not -- it didn't say anything about 'edible' on the package... Just inexpensive calligraphy paper, I think. It may not even have said "rice" -- my memory isn't all that reliable... Mike At 12:38 PM 7/2/2002 -1000, Jack wrote: >Hi Mike, > > there actually is such thing as rice paper. It is made from rice >starch, and is used in oriental cooking, especially as candy wrappers, >since it is completely edible. It also disintegrates in water. I wonder >if that's what you got a hold of? Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: Shireen Holman Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18618] Re: artist book question I've always made print editions specially for my books because I design the book as a whole, not as separate prints bound together. Because of this I've felt that then selling the individual prints would be like selling individual pages out of a book. But I don't see why you can't do it however you like, as long as it's clear to the person buying the prints or books that there are others available separately. Shireen At 04:25 PM 7/1/02 -0700, you wrote: >Question for the book artists in the list. >In making an artist book out of a series of my prints, do I use part of the >edition? Or do I use unnumbered prints? Do I make a tiny extra edition just >for the book(s)? >Help! >Thanks, >Maria > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >Maria Arango >Las Vegas, Nevada, USA >http://www.1000woodcuts.com >maria@mariarango.com ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> *********************************************** Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist email: shireenh@earthlink.net http://www.shireenholman.com *********************************************** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:55:48 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18619] Re: Exchange 14a page Thanks for noticing, Kat -- I'll try to get that fixed right away! Mike At 11:18 PM 7/2/2002 -0700, Kat Pukas wrote: >Concerning Exchange 14a... >http://www.barenforum.org/exchange/exchange_14/aexchangedetails.html >This 14a page says "P.S. Please don't forget that the number of prints to >be submitted is *31*, (30 for exchange, plus one for the [Baren] >archive)"... kind of misleading... shouldn't it be listed as *21* max? [:)] >Typical me, just out to edit the world! [;)] >Kat Pukas >http://home.earthlink.net/~milkyscarabs/art.html Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: G Wohlken Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:09:58 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18620] Re: Exhibit The Sacred Trees/Endangered Species (Meyer Center) show was hung yesterday, and opening is Friday night. It looks wonderful! A few of the staff at the park followed me around like puppies asking questions about woodcuts, linocuts, engravings and moku hanga. I was glad for my online and real life education through Baren, (and for the use of the Baren frames which gave a lovely uniform look to the show). By the way, a few of our Exchange #6 prints were added to the showcase (the nature-oriented ones). If we could fit them in, some of the Salon Endangered prints were included, but not all. However, of those not used, you do have other work in the show. My son, Shane, who works for the Geauga Parks at the Meyer Center took his digital camera to work with him today, so I'm expecting pictures. Stay tuned. Gayle Ohio (USA) >Subject: [Baren 18613] thanks Gayle > >Hi, just wanted to say thanks to Gayle for putting together the exhibition, and congratulations to Maria on the print show- >best wishes >Sarah > ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:21:06 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18621] Re: "rice" paper Yes, Sarah, this sounds like the stuff I tried to use for my very first hanga... At 09:16 AM 7/3/2002 -0400, you wrote: >perhaps what Mike got a hold of was the type of paper used for sumi-e >painting, which I have been doing a lot of! I believe some of these pads >or rolls of paper do actually say "rice paper" on them, even though it is >a misnomer, they are not made out of rice. This paper does not have >sizing, which causes some nice effects w/sumi painting, but I would not >use it for hanga, as the ink would spread all over the place. >It would also fall apart pretty easily if you attempted to print >hanga-style with it. >best wishes >Sarah Mike Lyon ------------------------------ From: slinders@attbi.com Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:09:03 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18622] Re: Exhibit Hi, Gayle, Thanks so much for sponsoring and setting up the Exhibit! What a great feeling for you to have the Show up and ready! Isn't it interesting how people are engaged by the prints and the process, when they see and understand how prints are made? Those dialogues are the best! I agree that the frames were an excellent investment, and they really dress prints up for a show. Good judgement in purchasing them, Julio! Have a great opening! Sharen G Wohlken wrote: > > The Sacred Trees/Endangered Species (Meyer Center) show was hung > yesterday, and opening is Friday > night. It looks wonderful! ------------------------------ From: "marilynn smih" Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:34:56 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18623] Re: Baren Digest V20 #1885 Yes 14a participants will submit 21 prints, not 31. There is a colophan entry now listed on the page for the 14 exchange. Thank you Mike Lyon for doing that. I will print a participant list tomorrow morning. We are over full and have at least one person who has requested to be wait listed instead of bumping someone off. Also Bea Gold you could go on that list if you want or into the exchange itself???? Since you first wanted in and than said you would wait for the next exchange and sent no email to clarify I did not include you. I do not want hard feelings here and am new to this coordinating stuff. But when someone said they wanted to be wait listed even though they were not in the mani exchange i honored that rather than remove a name, as so often we do have a person or two drop out for varied reasons. ------------------------------ From: Louise Cass Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:14:53 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18624] Re: Exchange 15 and Hanga More on the so called "rice" paper - It used to be the term wrongly used for what were actually (various) japanese mulberry papers. There are so many different grades of papers that I'm not surprised that a paper would disintegrate in a bathtub of water! http://www.LCassArt.com ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:13:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18625] soak vs spray I have never soaked my paper and wonder if I'm missing out on something. Is there an advantage to soaking the paper versus spraying with a water bottle? Has anyone tried both methods and can comment on differences? TIA Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:22:41 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18626] Re: soak vs spray Hi, Maria -- I have always soaked Rives BFK for at least two hours prior to blotting and printing oily monotypes and intaglios -- less and it doesn't conform properly to my plates. I usually soak and blot it for oily relief printing. I use it dry for lithography. When I wrote a couple days ago about SOAKing paper for hanga, I was describing my FIRST UNEDUCATED ATTEMPT at printing hanga and tried to communicate that in spite of doing everything wrong the prints were not unpleasing. For hanga, PLEASE don't soak your washi! Just lightly mist alternate sheets or use damp blotters as described on the forum so often... How you soak/spray/blot etc. depends on the paper and the technique. Like everything else in printing, process varies with material and the individual skills and needs of each printer... Just like you said so much more articulately earlier today, I think? Mike At 11:13 AM 7/3/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I have never soaked my paper and wonder if I'm missing out on something. Is >there an advantage to soaking the paper versus spraying with a water bottle? >Has anyone tried both methods and can comment on differences? >TIA >Maria Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:29:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18627] Re: "rice" paper Yes! These rolls/pads of paper *do* say "rice paper" on them. A big scrawling "Sumi-e" is the main title on them. I use this paper for my "hanshita" (is that the proper term?) to transfer the key block to the other blocks. It works great - if the color runs, then you are using too much water. I know, because that is my biggest fault with hanga - too much water! I'll bet it would just turn into pulp if it were put into a pan of water! Wanda Mike Lyon wrote: > > Yes, Sarah, this sounds like the stuff I tried to use for my very first > hanga... > > At 09:16 AM 7/3/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > perhaps what Mike got a hold of was the type of paper used for sumi-e > > painting, which I have been doing a lot of! I believe some of these pads or > > rolls of paper do actually say "rice paper" on them, even though it is a ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:30:33 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18628] Re: 07/03/2002 01:32:32 PM I wonder what Hokusai (third photo down) would say if he was around today: http://jun-gifts.com/maincatalogue/tabletops/tabletops3/tabletops3.htm Maybe he would say....fillem up! Nice collection, perhaps some day we may come to see Baren prints exhibited in such form! Julio ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:31:31 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18629] Exchange 14a Salon business... Thanks, Marilyn -- it's not easy being coordinator -- all these complicated decisions (and people!)... When you get 14a sorted out, let us know the list (and waiting list ?!)... Thanks, Kat Pukas for letting me know about the error on the 14a colophon page -- I think it is fixed to read "21" now instead of 31. - -- Mike At 10:34 AM 7/3/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Yes 14a participants will submit 21 prints, not 31. There is a colophan >entry now listed on the page for the 14 exchange. Thank you Mike Lyon for >doing that. I will print a participant list tomorrow morning. We are >over full and have at least one person who has requested to be wait listed >instead of bumping someone off. Also Bea Gold you could go on that list >if you want or into the exchange itself???? Since you first wanted in and >than said you would wait for the next exchange and sent no email to >clarify I did not include you. I do not want hard feelings here and am >new to this coordinating stuff. But when someone said they wanted to be >wait listed even though they were not in the mani exchange i honored that >rather than remove a name, as so often we do have a person or two drop out >for varied reasons. Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:58:37 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18630] Re: soak vs spray Maria, If you spray it and wrap it up and wait overnight to print there is no difference. If you spray and print, you will find the soaked paper pulls more ink off the plate than the sprayed paper. Not all paper can be soaked, some papers need to just be misted or they will fall apart. Waterleaf papers need to be misted. I would soak BFK or Arches cover....not arches 88, although I have used arches 88 damp by spraying it and letting it wait overnight. Usually for working with monotype, not intaglio. This is all I know and in one paragraph...scary isn't it? You have to ask the manufacturer what they recommend, then do your own tests...as they don't know everything. Barbara > I have never soaked my paper and wonder if I'm missing out on something. Is > there an advantage to soaking the paper versus spraying with a water bottle? > Has anyone tried both methods and can comment on differences? > TIA > Maria > ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:04:22 EDT Subject: [Baren 18631] Re: soak vs spray TIA Maria, I'll take soaking . The setuup works better for me when I use heavy paper -faster and efficient. I immerse every other piece of paper in a basin. Let it drip off by holding a corner. Make a pile of one soaked piece alternating with a dry piece. Cover with a piece of plexi or plastic, weigh down. Go away for a while. The paper has absorbed just the right amount of moisture. Secure and Safe 4th to All Carol L. . ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:46:08 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18632] For godness sake, did you not have enough already ? 07/03/2002 03:48:09 PM Just in case someone did not get enough....here are two interesting writeups... http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Pages/Kunc_specials.html and http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Pages/Frankenthaler_special.html on the same website check: http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Pages/Kollwitz4_Tragedies.html for some wonderfull Kollwitz prints. enjoy...Julio Rodriguez (Skokie, Illinois) ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 16:17:04 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18633] Re: soak vs spray Never heard of this method, but I LIKE IT !! Does away with all that blotter paper and rolling pin! If you were soaking BFK would you go away for more than a couple of hours? Mike At 04:04 PM 7/3/2002 -0400, you wrote: > TIA Maria, I'll take soaking . The setuup works better for me when I use >heavy paper -faster and efficient. >I immerse every other piece of paper in a basin. Let it drip off by holding >a corner. Make a pile of one soaked piece alternating with a dry piece. >Cover with a piece of plexi or plastic, weigh down. Go away for a while. >The paper has absorbed just the right amount of moisture. > >Secure and Safe 4th to All >Carol L. > . Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:31:10 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18634] soaking paper Mike, You can soak BFK for several days if you live in a cool climate. I have done so when I have gotten interrupted or just got real lazy, not recommended as it can cause foxing on the paper (little mold spots) at some future date even if the paper looks OK when you print it. You could put a drop or two of bleach in the water (notice I said DROP as in eye dropper drop) if you are in a hot climate. The minimum time for soaking this heavy paper is 20 minutes...and I think warm water works faster, although people say it makes no difference. There is really no difference between dipping and spraying paper, it all depends on how much water you want. For Hanga, I would spray every sheet lightly and layer. Or use that wonderful water brush on every other sheet. I am sure this is the way you are doing it as this is the recommended method for the oriental papers. A damp blotter on each side of the pack of paper works well as you know. If you are soaking paper, blot on old bath towels. It works so well and when they get full of sizing and get stiff, just run them through the wash and start over. Way cheaper than blotters and I think it works better. Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: John Amoss Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:23:34 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18635] Re: soaking paper Barbara- Doesn't the length of soaking time effect the sizing? Which leads me to ask: Is it that not important with oil-based? - -John Amoss on 7/3/02 2:31 PM, Lee and Barbara Mason at bemason@concentric.net wrote: > Mike, > You can soak BFK for several days if you live in a cool climate. I have done > so when I have gotten interrupted or just got real lazy, not recommended as > it can cause foxing on the paper (little mold spots) at some future date > even if the paper looks OK when you print it. You could put a drop or two of > bleach in the water (notice I said DROP as in eye dropper drop) if you are > in a hot climate. The minimum time for soaking this heavy paper is 20 > minutes...and I think warm water works faster, although people say it makes > no difference. > There is really no difference between dipping and spraying paper, it all > depends on how much water you want. For Hanga, I would spray every sheet > lightly and layer. Or use that wonderful water brush on every other sheet. I > am sure this is the way you are doing it as this is the recommended method > for the oriental papers. A damp blotter on each side of the pack of paper > works well as you know. > > If you are soaking paper, blot on old bath towels. It works so well and when > they get full of sizing and get stiff, just run them through the wash and > start over. Way cheaper than blotters and I think it works better. > Best to all, > Barbara > ------------------------------ From: "Eli Griggs" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:56:53 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18636] bluing tools Hi there: I thought this was a neat tip and wanted to pass it on. Some hunters who use high carbon knives, give steel blades some extra protection from rust, by giving them a coat of a good quality 'cold blue' material. This is the same stuff that gives guns that 'blued ' finish. It's easy to apply and can be found at most hunting/gun stores. Cheers, Eli ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:35:37 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18637] Re: soaking paper > Barbara- > Doesn't the length of soaking time effect the sizing? Which leads me to ask: > Is it that not important with oil-based? > -John Amoss John, Yes it does, of course. But the sizing in western paper is in the paper, not on the surface as oriental paper, so it effects it less. I have not noticed it unless I dry the paper and resoak it. Then sometimes it is not quite as crisp a line when printed. On BFK you would probably not even notice it. On a lighter weight paper like Rives lightweight it would be very noticable if you left it for a long time soaking. Testing is everything. Try it and see what happens for you...most of this stuff is learned by accident. Some good accidents and some bad ones! Just like the rest of life. I write it down now, so I don't have to make accidents over and over again! Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V20 #1886 *****************************