Baren Digest Sunday, 13 October 2002 Volume 21 : Number 1992 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Louise Cass Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:58:00 -0400 Subject: [Baren 19512] Re: magic numbers and stupidity How can the # "make a difference in the value of a print to a buyer" ??!! Does it alter the artistic value or quality of the image which we hope is why the buyer purchased it? We all know the numbering and limited editions are marketing ploys which somehow have convinced buyers that this increases the value of their prints - ethics excluded. Does anyone know, by the way, how and when this all started in the Western world? I believe Dave Bull has mentioned that prints aren't editioned in Japan (oh to be living in that society!) Also see interview with Richard Steiner's World Printmakers newsletter just the other day (Oct.10)on this subject. I believe he's regarded as somewhat of an 'eccentric' but isn't that the prerogative and perhaps pleasure of being an artist rather than a businessperson and/or marketer in our oppresively commercial age? Louise Cass > >Of course numbering an edition is an ethical question, as well as a legal >one. The numbering is, as you said, a sacred contract between the printer >and the buyer, recognized by law. That is why it makes a difference in the >value of a print to a buyer. That is why changing edition sizes in >midstream is 'frowned upon'. That is why a print from a smaller edition is >valued more than a similar print from a larger edition. > >Linda > > > http://www.LCassArt.com ------------------------------ From: Cyndy Wilson Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:15:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19513] Re: Baren Digest These are a few names from the AIC '98 directory: Victoria Blyth Hill Conservation Center LA County Museum 5905 Wilshire Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90036 (213) 857-6167 Fax (213) 936-5755 vhill#art.lacma.org David Brock Rare Book Conservation, Ltd. 4369 Argos Drive San Diego, CA 92116 (619)282-5155 Laura Downey, Associate Paper Conservator Balboa Art Conservation Center P.O. Box 3755 San Diego, CA 92107 (619) 236-9702 Fax: (619) 236-0141 11downey#aol.com Maria Fredericks Huntington library 1151 Oxford Rd. San Marino, CA 91108 (818) 405-2199 Fax: (818) 449-5720 fredrix420#aol.com I don't live in CA am certainly revealing my ignorance of the geography. If you can indicate which general area of CA Long Beach is in I can refine the list. It is in S. CA isn't it? on 10/10/02 9:37 PM, Sharri LaPierre at Barebonesart#attbi.com wrote: > Does anyone in the LA area know of a conservator to repair a severely > damaged print? The print is located in Lakewood, CA and I need to find > someone reliable in the Long Beach/Lakewood area. If you know of anyone > would you let me know? > > Sharri > ------------------------------ From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr." Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:33:55 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19514] Re: magic numbers and stupidity Somewhere in a magical region in the Northwest corner of a small, beligerant nation, an old professor is rubbing his hands, his fingers itching to add his nickel's worth. "Shall I reply to Maria Arango off line or on Baren?" Flip of the nickel--POOF! To quote Jack Nicholson's character in Five Easy Pieces: "I you're all full of . . . " Nah--I'm just trying to get your attention. Actually I have something positive to add to this interesting debate and the dilemmas of numbering etc. First I should suggest, as way of paying respect to our forebears who wrote books suitable for "Printmaking Philosophy 101"-- William M. Ivins and Walter Benjamin. Then proceed to a new, revised or appended chapter, still being written. I think we're in a new age, I'm calling it "The age of digital reproduction" which is a take off from Benjamin's "age of mechanical reproduction." He demonstrated how mechanical reproduction shifted the meaning of exactly repeatable images (Ivins' words) from esthetics to politics. And politics is the next door neighbor to economics, which is across the street from law. From this comes the practice of numbering fine art original prints, which has proved to be a boon to making money in the fine arts market, blurring the lines between fine art objects and mechanically (or semi-mechanical hybrids) produced objects of esthetic merit. So much for the B.S. (Bachelor of Science?). In the age of digital reproduction, let's take another look--the autograph. Near where I live there's a new building called the EMP--Experience Music Project where they feature all kinds of musical performances, equipment to play on, etc. It's a kind of Disneyworld for music history--mostly rock music since The King, and inspired by Jimi Hendrix. They include a museum display called "Uncommon Objects" where you can see things like Madonna's brassier or some else' shoes, or the remains of a broken guitar, etc. The autograph and number of a Maria Arango signature are like that in a way, they say "I was THIS close to the original maker, an authentic artist, in all her integrity, honesty, patience, tenacity, studiousness and humility! THIS close!" So far, so good. Now, the numbers. Well, enough has been expressed to keep our eyeballs busy reading and our minds wondering for a lifetime. What does it teach us? Not much in the realm of human creativity and understanding, nor how to improve our selves, our health, and pathways to happiness in my opinion. In this age, I've come to think it's no longer the face value of a signature, or an image--even the face value of a genuine sheepskin from New Zealand, imprinted in six intaglio colors and hand signed by the President of West Point--the mecca of military training--that counts today. The "interface" value of the artist's work is more important. That's why Maria's work "in your face" is more important than the number on the print. I hope the day does not come when the person with number 2/250 on her or his signed print, bought back in 2002, gets more at auction than poor number-holder who got number 250 (or vice-versa) and there ensues yet another college seminar (or lawsuit) based on numbering prints. The possibility that Maria met the person face to face, shared a cup of tea, and what resulted was a changed life--for the better--for one or both of them--is the real benefit, the "interface value" of her signature or autograph or whatchacallit. Someone will have to decide, later, whether such things can be auctioned off in a competitive forum. I'm putting my bets on a non-competitive forum for the future BETterment of human kinds. You axed for it. Professional Career Site: www.seanet.com/~ritchie First Emeralda Portal Site: www.artsport.com Bill's Virtual Art Gallery & e-commerce Site: www.myartpatron.com Experimental Free Site: www.freeyellow.com/members/videoprint Snail Mail: 500 Aloha #105, Seattle 98109 e-mail: ritchie#seanet.com ------------------------------ From: "lmhtwb" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:06:48 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19515] Re: magic numbers and stupidity Okay, as I've received 3 emails (besides Maria's) offlist about ethics and numbering and I don't feel like answering them all individually, here's the shotgun answer. Numbering of prints is either an arbitrary, archiac practice with no inherent meaning, or it has some meaning. If numbering has no meaning, no purpose, no application, other than to satisfy the buyer's idea that prints need numbers, then either don't number the prints but don't complain about buyers' reactions, or number them. Since we have assumed that the numbers are totally meaningless, I suggest for an edition of 50, you number half of them 3/50 and the other half 50/50, since these two numbers should maximize the 'value' of the prints according to buyers. If you object to this scheme, then the numbering does have some meaning. So, if numbering does have some meaning to someone, then one must determine that meaning. Traditionally, a number such as 17/25 meant that this was the 17th approved print from an edition of 25, and no other prints (save proofs) or editions exist. Most print collectors today seem to still think this is the case. Actually, and here is the ethics part, a lot of people view this numbering as a statement by the artist that the print is exactly what it seems to be (from a limited edition) and there aren't really 10,000 prints out there if a print is numbered 7/25. It can be viewed, from the buyer's viewpoint, as the only 'protection' that the buyer has. It is the printer's word, his bond, his handshake that all is fair. If this is not within the realm of ethics, then I don't know what is. As for value and numbering, this is a whole other problem. The artistic value of a print is different from the monetary value and is not effected by numbering. The artistic value is not what we are talking about. We are talking about Economics 101 -- the buyer determines the value by his willingness to spend his money, scarcity (even perceived) increases value, and supply/demand determines cost. If the buyer has decided that numbering increases the value, then to receive maximum return per print, a printer needs to number them. (How he numbers them depends on whether he views it as arbitrary or not and his own personal ethics on this.) Now, if anyone wishes to reply to this (assuming I haven't totally alienated everyone), please do so on the list. I have stuck my neck out and expressed my opinion in an open forum and think it's only fair that you do too. Linda ------------------------------ From: b.patera#att.net Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:57:34 +0000 Subject: [Baren 19516] Re: magic numbers Maria, My 2 cents worth ..... while numbering means that there are only so many of a print , a bond between artist and buyer... I am unsure of the ethics involved in starting to number an edition after prints have been sold without them. Your prints were un-numbered. This means that you can produce as many as you want as long as you want. I know that you've filled your original plate (s) and sold them but instead of numbering your remaining prints why don't you just carve other similar/very, very similar, plates. That way you can continue to produce popular prints whenever you wish. Barbara P. ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Sheridan" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:31:34 -0500 Subject: [Baren 19517] Re: recovering the Baren Sometime back there was a wonderful and clear, David Bull explanation and pictured demonstration on how to cover a baren. I can't seem to find it in the achives and would love to see it again. Can anyone direct me there? Joe ------------------------------ From: "nancy osadchuk" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:20:48 -0600 Subject: [Baren 19518] chops, washi Charles, thanks for the chop info. I was thinking of making one by carving a bit of soapstone but this sounds much simpler. About the #15 exchange, using japanese paper, how sticky are the rules? Can a machine made paper be used or does it have to be a hand made paper? ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez#walgreens.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:16:41 -0500 Subject: [Baren 19519] Re: washi 10/12/2002 05:20:59 PM Nancy...re washi... Mike Lyon is out of town till Sunday, but I am sure as our coordinator of exchanges he'll elaborate on your question re the use of washi for #15. My personal suggestion is that you go with a medium to good quality handmade japanese paper. There is no substitute for moku hanga. Even when I print with other papers ( Rives Hvy white)... I often throw in a handful of hosho sheets in each edition for comparison. The difference in how the pigments are absorbed and how the print looks is obvious. When Mike and I came up with the idea for this exchange it was to give everyone a real feel for the hanga process....shortchanging yourself in the MOST critical part......the paper....is inconceivable. Buy the best you can afford. The paper size for this exchange (5 X15" approx.) is economical in that you should get two prints out of a standard oban sheet. You can proof on cheaper paper and save the good stuff for your edition. Just some thoughts...Julio 1/5 ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 07:37:21 +0900 Subject: [Baren 19520] Re: Japanese numbering and baren tying Louise wrote: > I believe Dave Bull has mentioned that prints aren't > editioned in Japan (oh to be living in that society!) I should clarify the tense here ... in the old 'ukiyo-e' days, there was no such concept of numbering prints. They were simply 'printed matter', articles of commerce (the most part), and there was no attempt to make them anything else. But the art scene in present day Japan works just the same way as 'over there'. All modern artists number their prints. And, just the same as 'over there', the signed and numbered printed poster scam flourishes ... *** Joe wrote: > ... David Bull explanation and pictured demonstration on how to cover a > baren. > I can't seem to find it in the achives and would love to see it again. > Can anyone direct me there? Just go to: http://woodblock.com ... drop down to the very bottom of the page, and click on the link for 'Tools and Materials/for printing' ... A window will pop up with a list of articles, one of which is the one you are looking for ... Dave ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:52:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19521] Re: magic numbers and stupidity Thanks for your reply, Professor Ritchie! You always seem to put things so very well; I'm happy that thinking minds exist in the far East, the Northwest and elsewhere in Baren. > To quote Jack Nicholson's character in Five Easy Pieces: "I > you're all full > of . . . " Or... "Rules? there are no rules! we are trying to accomplish something here."--Albert Einstein But really, thanks everyone for some very interesting points made on both sides. And even though I was pondering on a philosophical/logical level, what brought on my initial thoughts was the act of printing my uneditioned (nicer word) card-prints, sold, with an envelope for your convenience, at art festivals everywhere. The total investment for a collector is $8.00. Most people snap that puppy out of its protective cover and frame it, then email to tell me they "ripped me off" in a friendly sort of way. I smile a lot when that happens; must be that "tea" magic Bill was talking about. - - An American goes down to Mexico on vacation and buys a large piece of pottery from a street vendor. Getting back to his car, he tells his companions: "Can you believe this? That idiot is selling these huge nice pots for a ridiculous $5.00!" Meanwhile back at the vendor's hut, a man is grinning and telling his buddies: "Stupid gringo, gave me a whole $5.00 for a worthless piece of pottery..." - - Here is another philosophical question: Why do water heaters always bust out on a weekend? Maria, to plumb or not to plumb...yet another dilemma <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria#mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Sharri LaPierre Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:22:25 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19522] Re: Baren Digest V21 #1991 Maria, Maria, Maria (ala Bernstein) My what dilemmas you do present. For the evangelical ethicists in the group: I do the editioning thing according to Hoyle, however, I confess to times when I am nearly overcome with a strong desire to throw it all to the winds and dispense with all the record keeping and headaches that go with all this nonsense and revert to Medieval times. But, modernity has made this the nature of the beast and for the present, at least, we are stuck with it. So, I guess you are committed to those un-editioned blocks even though you know in your heart of hearts (I've always loved that expression) that those prints are now limited. But, on all the new blocks you cut for the "little darling" prints, you can number to your hearts content, or 200, which ever comes first. As for the increase or decrease of values or relative editions/non-editions, limited and unlimited, I see a direct correlation to the question about that darned tree falling in the forest and whether it makes a sound if no one is there to hear it. I think this will keep us all awake for a week. At least. You likey answer? James, thanks so much for the name of the conservator - I will start calling Monday morning. Bea, if I can't connect with Duane, I will try LACMA and Laguna. Wish me luck - Sharri > ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19523] numbering I tried not to get into this, but I have a simple solution for you Maria, number your prints from 1 to the end of the edition, change the color slightly and call it 2nd state. Too easy I know. If anyone asks you about the first state, say the color changed and the first state was not a numbered edition but was about 55 prints (or however many there were). This gets you home free and no one will whine. The "ethics" just left the room in a huff.... Seems like an easy way to handle this and keep all happy. Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: Charles Morgan Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:28:23 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19524] Re: chops Thanks to all for appreciative comments about making your own chop. Here is a bit more ... Of course instead of coating the head of your bolt with shellac and using a needle to draw your design, you can use a fine brush and the colored shellac to paint your design on the head of the bolt. Then when you etch, you will be producing a relief image of your design. However, you will probably want to etch much more deeply if you do it this way ... otherwise it is hard to ink the design cleanly without getting ink all over the surrounding metal and smudging everything when you try to print it. I have also made a chop from a piece of 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate I had lying around. I cut out a small square and used epoxy to put it on the end of a bit of wood for a handle. I then used a small dental burr on a Dremmel tool to carve the image in the aluminum. Aluminum is quite soft and can be cut with wood working tools. You can buy small size aluminum bar and strip from hobby shops, craft stores, and lumber yards. You could use brass or copper for that matter, as the Dremmel tool will cut these just fine with the dental burr.You need a deft hand with the Dremmel tool, though. You can also carve a design in the aluminum with a small V-gouge, or with standard metal engraving tools. But do not use your wood working tools on steel. You can also use the copper sulfate and salt to etch aluminum (or zinc, for that matter)... but add just a bit (1/10 by volume is fine) of sodium bisulfate to the solution. Sani-flush toilet cleaner is what I use for the sodium bisulfate. Remember to protect anything you do not want to etch with a good coat of shellac. The aluminum will etch faster than the steel. But if you are going to etch, a steel bolt is a lot easier to find than a chunk of aluminum. As another alternative ... get some high quality MDF (medium density fiber board), about 3/4 inches thick. Just get a piece of scrap from a cabinet maker or counter-top place. Cut a small square and glue it to the end of a stick for a handle. Use your small size V-gouge to carve your chop design. Engraving tools do not seem to work on MDF ... at least I could not make them work. They just seem to tear the MDF. But the V-gouge works fine. You will need to rub some sort of hard finish into the MDF after carving ... I have used thinned polyurethane, a couple of coats. The MDF does not stand up as well as the aluminum or steel, but it is easy to do and works for quite a while, depending on how detailed a design you try to make. I have not tried it, but I bet Corian would work. Someone on list said he was carving Corian with wood working tools. Anybody up for a chop print exchange ??? At least the shipping of the prints would be cheap !!! Cheers ........ Charles ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:31:34 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19525] Re: Baren Digest V21 #1991 > For the evangelical ethicists in the > group: I do the editioning thing according to Hoyle, Funny, a guy named Hoyle wrote a Vegas book on gambling strategies...coincidence??? I DON'T THINK SO! ;-) > You likey answer? > Me likey all answer...me think hard...me have headache...water heater is fixed...me take hot shower now Me ------------------------------ From: John Oliver Dendy Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:07:36 -0700 Subject: [Baren 19526] Re: chops Hi Charles, Thank you for the two postings on etched chops. Have you, or has anyone else on the list, tried to work on the ends of the white translucent high density plastic rods and bars that have appeared on the market in the past few years? Industrial Plastics & Paints, on Quadra in our case, and International Plasics in the US, has them in several widths. I have worked the flat stock to a repeatable accuracy of 1/128 inch in the shop. I'm not sure how well they will ink. Except for the weight, a 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch wide chop on a 2 or 3 inch long piece could have the same feel in the hand as a traditional stone chop. The material turns well on a lathe so that any comfortable shape and grip surface, or even an artful interlocking of the 'On the Road' and the 'In the Studio' chops, should be possible. See you Wednesday at Barry Till's lecture. Cheers, JOD ... at The Treetops Studios Saanichton ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V21 #1992 *****************************