Baren Digest              Monday, 14 October 2002      Volume 21 : Number 1993


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan#uvic.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 07:57:47 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19527] Re: chops 

 Hello John,

I have not tried the plastic. We all know that standard plexiglass sheet 
will take oilly inks, especially when it has been given a bit of "tooth" 
with fine sandpaper. So I bet the plastic rod stuff will work fine if you 
want to carve it or engrave it. That's a good suggestion. It should be easy 
to work with standard wood working tools.

However, I know of no process for etching plastics. Does anybody out there 
know how to etch plastic??? Steel bolt heads have the benefit of being 
available everywhere AND you can etch them easily.Many folks, like me, may 
find it easier to draw with a needle than to engrave such a small piece. 
But for sure I am going to trot down to the plastic store and try a chunk 
of rod ... or maybe I will just cut a piece of plexiglass and glue it to a 
handle and try that.

Yes, I hope to be at the Wednesday lecture. Please introduce yourself. I am 
easy to spot: wearing glasses, a little over 6 feet tall, long white beard, 
hair down my back in a pony tail, wearing jeans and sandals.

Cheers ...... Charles

At 09:07 PM 10/12/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Charles,
>
>         Thank you for the two postings on etched chops.  Have you, or has 
> anyone
>else on the list, tried to work on the ends of the white translucent high
>density plastic rods and bars that have appeared on the market in the past
>few years?  Industrial Plastics & Paints, on Quadra in our case, and
>International Plasics in the US, has them in several widths.  I have worked
>the flat stock to a repeatable accuracy of 1/128 inch in the shop.  I'm not
>sure how well they will ink.
>         Except for the weight, a 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch wide chop on a 2 or 
> 3 inch
>long piece could have the same feel in the hand as a traditional stone
>chop.  The material turns well on a lathe so that any comfortable shape and
>grip surface, or even an artful interlocking of the 'On the Road' and the
>'In the Studio' chops, should be possible.
>
>         See you Wednesday at Barry Till's lecture.
>
>Cheers,
>
>JOD
>... at The Treetops Studios
>Saanichton
>



------------------------------

From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr." <ritchie#seanet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:42:28 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19528] Re: magic numbers and stupidity 

Wouldn't it be neat if there were, among this - what do you call it, not
dialogue (two people talking) or monologue (one person talking to him/her
self) . . . must be, like, omnilogue or multilogue. Babbel? Wouldn't a "Last
Word" on numbering be neat?

Anyway, this is my last word. I'm looking for a little more science in this,
something I can join up with other "sciences" like social science, life
science, bio-sci, phy-sci or sci-fi . . .

And what I get is a phrase, "Vanity of the numbers." Look at what we're
saying. Fifty? five hundred? 10,000? In the media arts (to which hand made
fine art prints belongs when you compare these arts and crafts to
one-of-a-kind paintings, sculpture, architecture, etc) these are very small
numbers.

But, hey, we're one person operations here. How can one person turn out
10,000 prints? Even fifty is hard to do and takes some helpers in many
instances. I had a hard time making 30 for the last exchange I tried.

Another medium, say, printing on a letterpress, might take 30 just to get
the ink and pressure settings correct, and when the person/machine gets
going, they can't afford to stop until they hit 500; then they have to sell
MOST of them to break even. TV runs at the rate of 30 frames PER SECOND,
which is actually 60 "semi-frames" (fields).

Prints, you've come a LONG way, I say!

These numbers we're speakingn of are tiny, in my opinion, and the impact
that a few prints like these have "scientifically" by almost any measure is
as hard to detect as the level of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. Harder
still to convince a small nation that it's making too much of it -- and
methane, too.

Let's continue to enjoy one another's different stories about numbers. But I
am going to look to more numbers like, for example, the reasons why some of
us rush to opportunities to do some positive things in the name of art and
poetry now. How many, what's the timing, how much money, the outcome--those
would also be interesting numbers.

Things like Maria's puzzle project. And the Kansas City Gathering . . .
these to me are important indicators of something that has potential. Who
knows? Could even effect the environment if we play our numbers right.
(we=artists/crafts people/designers/techies)

But I think we have to be reminded that Margaret Mead's statement about
small groups or "one person" operations may be less reliable now than it
once was. There's vanity in small numbers, too.

A scientist warned me, "You have a vast idea, but your plan is half-vast."

- - Bill, AKA "Professor"

Professional Career Site: www.seanet.com/~ritchie
First Emeralda Portal Site: www.artsport.com
Bill's Virtual Art Gallery & e-commerce Site: www.myartpatron.com
Experimental Free Site: www.freeyellow.com/members/videoprint
Snail Mail: 500 Aloha #105, Seattle 98109
e-mail: ritchie#seanet.com


------------------------------

From: Sharri LaPierre <Barebonesart#attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:47:01 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19529] Re: Baren Digest V21 #1992 

Cindy,

Thanks for the names of the additional conservation folk. Southern CA is 
a geographic nightmare - it took me a few minutes to remember that San 
Marino is near Pasadena. None of these are near the location of the 
print needing attention, so far Culver City is probably the closest, but 
none of them are out of the question.  This will all depend on how far 
the folks with the print are willing to travel to get it repaired. We 
will see what comes of this, but I appreciate your input. I'll start 
trying to reach someone tomorrow.

thanks to all -
Sharri


------------------------------

From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <lbmason71#attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19530] Plastic 

Warning: Boring stuff about plastic to follow....read at your own
risk.......

Charles,
I my real life my husband and I own a plastic manufacturing company, custom
injection molding and vacuum forming, so I know quite a bit about plastic,
more than I ever wanted to know. But it has paid all our bills for 33 years,
so guess you just do your work and don't whine, right?

The plastic of choice for machining is acetal or phenolic. Acetal is pretty
strong, but brittle. Also is is very slick and not much sticks to it, even
glue. Even if you rough it up nothing wants to stick. It is usually found in
white or black rods. The trade names for acetal are delrin and celcon. Not a
good choice for a chop as the ink won't want to stick to it but it is great
to machine. It holds fine detail well.

ABS (acrylinitryl butadine styrene) is the most used plastic in the world,
you phone, your computer, your boom box, your printer, your tv cabinet and
so on are made from ABS. There are hundreds of forumlas for each type of
plastic, depending upon what you want it to do. Pipes are also made from ABS
and the glue used for these plumbing pipes does a good job of gluing it to
itself. It holds ink well if you sand the surface of the sheets. It cuts
well and machines well but is a lot softer than acetal. Softer is relative,
it won't feel soft to touch, but the strengh will be less. You could carve
out your shapes in sheet stock abs and glue it to another piece and you
would have your chop. Not too practical if the chop is complex.

Phenolic is used for press beds, it is like a resin instead of a molded
plastic, although there are moldable grades of it. You see it laminated with
fiber a lot. It is usually black and comes in rods and bars. Called benelyx
for press beds.

Acrylic or plexi-glas, the clear plates we all love, will glue to itself
with acetone but will be hard to machine. It tends to burn when you saw it,
it just sort of gums up and melts instead of turning to powder like wood.
They make special saws that saw it well. Supposedly it holds up well to
solvent, but it is my experience that after a few years of use, it becomes
brittle and the edges of plates break a bit. UV light could also cause this,
not just solvents. You can use a dremmel with acrylic to carve it and it
will hold ink if it is roughed up a bit with fine sand paper.

Styrene is a plastic I have seen used at Frogmans, they carve it just like
linoblock and it seems to work well. It is usually white and available at
most plastic distributors in 1/8 inch thickness. It comes with one smooth
side and one rough or haircell side. It is fairly soft, not quite as easy to
carve as linoblock, but not bad. It will hold finer lines than linoblock but
not as fine as cherry wood or engraving materials. It is carinogenic if
burned, so do not smell the fumes of this stuff if you accidently burn some.
This is the plastic you see used in thin formings, like insides of boxes to
hold a product in place. They make a food grade of it used to hold
chocolates inside a box of candy for shipping for example.  It would be safe
to carve it, just don't eat it.

Polycarbonate, trade name lexan, is the tough stuff you see them throwing a
baseball at in those tv adds. It is very strong but solvents will attack it.
I sometimes see it in print rooms, usually used as a tympan for lithography
presses. It has to be replaced more often than other types of plastic but
will seldom crack and is pretty flexible. It comes in a clear with a yellow
cast or a blue cast. These colors are UV inhibitors as without them it would
deteriorate in sunlight.

Nylon is used where a flexible strength is needed. Not necessarily flexible
to the eye, but flexible like a bearing holder or a sleve for a steel rod.
Also probably not a good choice for a chop. It would not carve very well.

Nothing really etches plastic in the conventional sense. The best way to
make a plastic chop is to find a friend with a CNC Milling Machine (computer
numerically controlled) and a software program that lets them program
it..then have your design translated into computer language, put it onto a
disc and put in into the machine. The CNC will do the rest, assuming your
friend has the skill to run it. This could be expensive as my sons charge
about $60 an hour for their expertise.

However, on a more realistic level for artists, I would get a dremmel tool
and just make it yourself. I think this would work but I have not tried it.
It seems reasonable you could just carve the end of an acrylic rod...

Most plastic is dangerous if you get it too hot. The melt temperature is not
too hot, but 100 degrees higher will give horrible fumes and in some cases
just overcome a person. Acetal gives of formaldyhyde fumes if it gets too
hot and it sends you right out into the parking lot immediately. We never
get it too hot....unless it is a machine that goes nuts and the heater
controls stop working. This has happened to us and we just throw off the
power and all leave the building until it airs out. Not something you want
to do often...it is unbelievable how bad it smells, your eyes tear up and
you just cannot breath.  Like any process, the safety is between your ears.
If you handle things correctly there is little or no danger.....sort of like
keeping both hands on the tool when you are carving.

So if anyone has any plastic questions, I might know the answer or I can
certainly find it. We get about 50 pounds of trade literature a month....it
is an amazing industry. I have seen machines that make 8 little 1/2 cup cups
in 8 seconds, they just hop out of the machine, hit a conveyor belt and drop
into boxes. Tricky, doing stuff so fast. Without plastics the medical
industry would just come to a standstill. I have seen facilities where they
make medical stuff, it is worse than computer chip rooms. Everyone in paper
suits and the air filtered and so on...nothing touched by human hands unless
they are in steril gloves, everyone wearing masks. We don't think about it,
the precations taken in manufacturing for our safety. Food safe material is
made from a different base resin than the plastic used for your computer.
This is a great country, the safety standards for employees and processes
are just incredible.

To find plastic sheet or bars or rods in your area, look in the phone book
under plastic distributors, rods and sheet stock. Call them and ask
questions. Most of the sales people are very knowledgable and nice and will
help you if you are specific about what you want to do, or they will send
you to someone who can help you. The distributor I know best is Laird
Plastics and they are national, I think. There are some retail home
improvement or craft stores that carry sheets of plastic, also glass
companies carry acrylic as they use it for windows in some situations. Use
that phone book. If you can get it from a distributor it will be a lot less
that from a retail store and if you tell they you are an artist and only
need a few inches of rod, they might just give you a sample...it happens all
the time! I ordered a sample of pigment for plastic once and they sent me
1/2 pound of T102.(this is titanium oxide white pigment) so if I added a
little linseed oil I could have made a lot of oil paint or ink pretty
cheaply....but I never had time to try it! Maybe in my next life.
Best to all,
Barbara





------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan#uvic.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:16:45 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19531] Re: Plastic 

Hi Barbara,

Thanks so much for all that lovely information. It was not boring at all 
... very useful stuff.

It seems that the problem with most plastics is that nothing much wants to 
stick to it. So, maybe I won't be so hasty to try the stuff for a chop ... 
let someone else find out what works and what does not.

Cheers ....... Charles

At 10:51 AM 10/13/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Warning: Boring stuff about plastic to follow....read at your own
>risk.......



------------------------------

From: FurryPressII#aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:48:42 EDT
Subject: [Baren 19532] Re: magic numbers and stupidity 

Consistency is the key word here as well as intent    if you started off as 
an uneditioned print keep it that way.  Maria remember how many blocks you 
are going to cut to make 1,000.     

john center

------------------------------

From: Julio.Rodriguez#walgreens.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:55:54 -0500
Subject: [Baren 19533] Re: New issue of Barensuji Newsletter.... 10/13/2002 09:00:13 PM 

Issue #9 of Baren-Suji, the Newsletter of the [Baren] Forum for
Woodblock Printmaking is now ready!

For those not in the subscription list the newsletter can be found at:
http://barenforum.org/newsletter/issue09/issue09.html

My thanks to all that contributed, to David for the uploading and get-ready
work..and to my group of assistants for previewing and pointing out
problems.

thanks...Julio Rodriguez 4/5 (Skokie,Illinois)





------------------------------

From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <lbmason71#attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:01:14 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19534] : Plastic  

Charles,
You are too kind...what about using an eraser and just carving it? That
would work for one that wasn't too complicated....or just have a rubber
stamp made. It is not too expensive and you can get anything as they use a
photo polymer sort of like what solar plates are made of. Seems if you just
want to put on an ink chop this would be the easiest way.
Barbara

\> Thanks so much for all that lovely information. It was not boring at all

> ... very useful stuff.
>
> It seems that the problem with most plastics is that nothing much wants to
> stick to it. So, maybe I won't be so hasty to try the stuff for a chop ...
> let someone else find out what works and what does not.
>
> Cheers ....... Charles

\



------------------------------

From: "Jean Womack" <jeaneger#jeaneger.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:33:16 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19535] Re:   Baren Digest V21 #1992 

All the chops around here and in San Francisco, are carved into soapstone.
I supposed wooden chops would work well too.  That stuff about etching a
chop into a bolt with copper sulphate is total nonsense.
  

I do NOT understand why Charles is bringing toxic chemicals into this
discussion group which is dedicated to non-toxic printmaking.  But you got
me on your fishing hook, Charles.

We don't ever throw those chemicals down the drain because we don't want to
pollute the ground water or the San Francisco Bay, not to mention taking a
chance on our sewer pipes.  We put them in bottles and take them to the
toxic waste recycling place, otherwise known as the city dump.  If we put
that stuff in wine bottles, WE LABEL THOSE BOTTLES  very clearly with what's
in them, INCLUDING SKULL AND CROSSBONES, just in case a Mexican or Iraqui or
Russian or Canadian or Australian or Chinese Person who don't speak English
breaks into our house while we're gone,  they won't be tempted to sit around
and have a drink.  I can't do anything about the ticks and lice that abound
in the park next to where I live, or the pollution from the refinery, except
keep my cats indoors.

As far as the nasturtium prints go, thanks Wanda for asking about them.  I
used a lot of extender in the oil-based ink so it became transparent.  I cut
the blocks loosely without much precision and layered them, so there is
texture.  Then I printed a lot of different variations.  It was fun.
Goodness only knows why I didn't do it that way again.  Actually I did a
triptych print about Somalia with that transparent color-mixing method, so
that is in my political series.  I think I don't have that one online.
Maybe I'll make a special section for politically aware prints.


Jean




------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50#earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:23:42 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19536] Re: Baren Digest V21 #1992 

Hi Sharri,  

Roxanne Sexauer is a member of LAPS, teaches printmaking at Long
Beach State University and was a member of  the Baren.  Maybe she can help
with someone closer.  Her address is:
4139 N. Marwick Ave. Lakewood, CA 90713 Phone - (562) 429-6011 home, (562)
985-4360 work - I lost her e-mail address -
Anyone in Baren have it?  Here's something :
http://www.art.csulb.edu/printmaking/  Looks like Roxanne Sexauer, will be
participating in the Printmaking Residency Program at the Plains Art Museum
in Fargo, North Dakota this fall.  Oh well - a try - Bea

>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sharri LaPierre" <Barebonesart#attbi.com>
>To: <baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
>Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 9:47 AM
>Subject: [Baren 19529] Re: Baren Digest V21 #1992
>
>
>Cindy,
>
>Thanks for the names of the additional conservation folk. Southern CA is
>a geographic nightmare - it took me a few minutes to remember that San
>Marino is near Pasadena. None of these are near the location of the
>print needing attention, so far Culver City is probably the closest, but
>none of them are out of the question.  This will all depend on how far
>the folks with the print are willing to travel to get it repaired. We
>will see what comes of this, but I appreciate your input. I'll start
>trying to reach someone tomorrow.
>
>thanks to all -
>Sharri




------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan#uvic.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:01:31 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19537] Re: : Plastic  

I have found rubber erasers do not hold up and 
are difficult to carve, at least for me. I did have a local Chinese artist make me a 
nice chop out of standard stone (marble? soapstone?). But I thought it might be fun to try 
making a couple myself. And etching steel allows me to make more 
complicated designs than my poor fumble fingers can carve. I suppose I 
could get a rubber stamp made, but somehow that seemed like cheating to me 
... don't ask me why !!!! Anyway, I recall one of my old books had 
something about etching marble in it ... I must go look. But of course then 
I would have to get some marble ... those old steel bolts sure are easy to 
find !!

Cheers ..... Charles

At 08:01 PM 10/13/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Charles,
>You are too kind...what about using an eraser and just carving it? That
>would work for one that wasn't too complicated....or just have a rubber
>stamp made. It is not too expensive and you can get anything as they use a
>photo polymer sort of like what solar plates are made of. Seems if you just
>want to put on an ink chop this would be the easiest way.
>Barbara
>
>\> Thanks so much for all that lovely information. It was not boring at all

> > ... very useful stuff.
> >
> > It seems that the problem with most plastics is that nothing much wants to
> > stick to it. So, maybe I won't be so hasty to try the stuff for a chop ...
> > let someone else find out what works and what does not.
> >
> > Cheers ....... Charles

>\



------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan#uvic.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:43:00 -0700
Subject: [Baren 19538] Re:   Baren Digest V21 #1992 

Hello Jean,

Glad to see you are still as feisty as ever ;-)}}}} Nice to hear from you 
again.

At 08:33 PM 10/13/02 -0700, you wrote:

>All the chops around here and in San Francisco, are carved into soapstone.
>I supposed wooden chops would work well too.  That stuff about etching a
>chop into a bolt with copper sulphate is total nonsense.


It works well, and is sooooo easy ...


>I do NOT understand why Charles is bringing toxic chemicals into this
>discussion group which is dedicated to non-toxic printmaking.  But you got
>me on your fishing hook, Charles.


I mentioned it because someone asked about it.

As for toxicity ... well, I will bet a lot of money that copper sulfate 
will be found in a lot of products down at your local garden supply store 
... and a lot of folks there in California spray it on their lawns and 
fruit trees, not to mention the livestock farmers that use it for foot 
baths for their stock. The little bit you might dump down your drain will 
not amount to a spit in the ocean compared to all that is being sprayed 
there. Copper sulfate is not carcinogenic, and less poisonous than a  lot 
cleaning supplies you pour down your drain ... for example, Draino. And 
I'll bet you do not save everything with table salt on it for the toxic 
waste disposal folks. Your sewage drains were designed to carry away salty 
fluids. And Sani-Flush is designed to clean your toilet and be flushed down 
your drains. That mixture of copper sulfate, salt, and Sani-Flush is pretty 
low on the toxicity scale.  Etching with copper sulfate, salt, and 
Sani-Flush is regarded as non-toxic by most etchers ... see Nik Semenoff's 
site and Cedric Green's site. But if you or anyone else is worried about it 
or feels uncomfortable about using it, by all means, do not use it.

By the way, I have done more damage to myself with one stroke of a carving 
tool than with all the copper sulfate I dealt with on the farm ... but 
then, I am a bit fumble fingered ...

Having a nice looking chop on a print certainly can add a great deal. And 
if you made the chop yourself, there is even more pleasure in it.

Keep up the good printing work, Jean. I'll bet Howard would etch you a nice 
chop on a bolt head if you ask him nicely ...

Cheers ....... Charles

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End of Baren Digest V21 #1993
*****************************