Baren Digest Wednesday, 19 March 2003 Volume 22 : Number 2163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jean Womack" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:23:37 -0800 Subject: [Baren 21046] Re: Baren Digest V22 #2162 Printing 100 prints for a calendar is a Herculean task, it seems to me. I'd like to know what the expenses of the baren forum are that these are raising money for, and how you are going to sell the calendars? The last time someone asked me for an edition of prints that we were supposedly going to exchange as a group (not in Baren) and then sell, it went into her flat files and they are still sitting there. That was about seven years ago. Is there a point when, if they don't sell, they are divided among the participants? Obviously you would have to sell them before the end of next year. I have cut the block for the year of the sheep and only need to print it. My print will be of goats owned by a neighbor. He brings them into town each Thanksgiving. Mind you, this is an urban area and he is a city councilman. However, he has a big piece of land here and uses the goats as a lawn mower. He brings them into the commercial district where some neighbors get together for a "turkey shoot." That means they go to the bar and drink Wild Turkey. I seized the opportunity to take some photos of these goats, so that will be my print. ------------------------------ From: "Maria Diener (aka Arango)" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:48:33 -0800 Subject: [Baren 21047] frame space Back from Scottsdale, where they appreciate a woodcut print or two! Tune in to after 5 for the (sort of) humorous return trip. On the framing question, yes, the artwork is separated from the glass for reasons mentioned. I used frame-space, also mentioned and its cousin econo-space and finally found that once I was floating almost all my prints it got to be pretty expensive. I now go to my nearest Lowe's (Home Depot doesn't carry these) and buy square wooden dowels about 1/4" size, they come in 3 foot sections. Any square dowel will do. I paint them with acrylic to match the frames I use most often, usually black, walnut and cherry. I pre-paint a whole bunch and once I get to framing they are ready to go. I cut them with a toh, which slices right through them and glue them with a tad of wood glue to the backing mat. They make a regular frame look awesome, just like a tiny shadow box. And they are much much cheaper than the commercial frame space with the advantage that you can color them. The main disadvantage is that they take a bit of time to paint and glue, framespace comes ready to stick. I found as an artist that there is always a trade off of time and money when making or buying materials. Maria, in a still rainy? and windyasthedickens Vegas <||><||><||><||><||><||> Maria Arango Las Vegas Nevada USA www.1000woodcuts.com <||><||><||><||><||><||> ------------------------------ From: Bobbi Chukran Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:49:29 -0600 Subject: [Baren 21048] Re: frame space Maria! You're a genius! My husband has a huge workshop, and could easily do the cutting, etc. for me. The painting I don't mind.........I've literally been trying to get all sorts of things to work over the years to make spacer frames.....strips of mattboard, etc. I never even knew square dowels existed! Bless you..........LOL Bobbi C. >On the framing question, yes, the artwork is separated from the glass for >reasons mentioned. I used frame-space, also mentioned and its cousin >econo-space and finally found that once I was floating almost all my prints >it got to be pretty expensive. I now go to my nearest Lowe's (Home Depot >doesn't carry these) and buy square wooden dowels about 1/4" size, they come >in 3 foot sections. Any square dowel will do.>> ------------------------------ From: "Cynthia S. Bendix" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:14:57 -0800 Subject: [Baren 21049] Re: frame space Re: the wooden "dowels" for use as spacers; These do make adequate spacers, however one picky note: Wood is "acidic" and may eventually cause acid burns wherever they touch the print. Wood pulp is the basis of newsprint and other cheaper paper. Think of how your newspaper turns yellow after a week or two. However, I have not actually tried using these, so I don't know if sealing them with "paint" mitigates this or not. I hate how my artist brain fights with my custom framer brain sometimes on these issues. Thea ------------------------------ From: "Maria Diener (aka Arango)" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:52:11 -0800 Subject: [Baren 21050] Re: frame space Hi Cynthia, Yes, I do realize wood is acidic, but it gets covered/sealed well with standard acrylic paint and it is placed between the backing mat and the glass, flush to the frame. I'd say it's usually a good 4 inches at least from the print itself, which is held floating off the backing by archival matboard. The spacer is no more likely to cause the print damage than the frame itself. An additional safeguard could be to use gesso prior to the color to seal the wood further. Thanks, we always need to make sure our works are preserved! Maria <||><||><||><||><||><||> Maria Arango Las Vegas Nevada USA www.1000woodcuts.com <||><||><||><||><||><||> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > [mailto:owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp]On Behalf Of Cynthia S. Bendix > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 8:15 AM > To: baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Cc: baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Subject: [Baren 21049] Re: frame space > > > Re: the wooden "dowels" for use as spacers; > These do make adequate spacers, however one picky note: > Wood is "acidic" and may eventually cause acid burns wherever they touch > the print. > > Wood pulp is the basis of newsprint and other cheaper paper. Think of how > your newspaper turns yellow after a week or two. > > However, I have not actually tried using these, so I don't know if > sealing them with "paint" mitigates this or not. > > I hate how my artist brain fights with my custom framer brain sometimes > on these issues. > > Thea > > ------------------------------ From: Bobbi Chukran Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:05:16 -0600 Subject: [Baren 21051] Re: frame space HI Maria, I'm glad you explained this. I couldn't remember that your prints were floated in the middle of the backing mat......If the wood is painted, then I wouldn't worry at all about it. That makes a really elegant presentation, too. Now all I have to do is find commercial frames that are a little deeper in order to have enough space for the spacer and the backer......Some of the ones I've seen lately are awfully thin........... Bobbi C. >Yes, I do realize wood is acidic, but it gets covered/sealed well with >standard acrylic paint and it is placed between the backing mat and the >glass, flush to the frame. ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:44:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baren 21052] Re: Baren Digest V22 #2162 Jean, These are good questions and since I handle the purse strings I can probably answer. The web site costs us almost $500 a year. For the last year Baren has paid all it's own expenses from money earned at 10% from mall sales. If a baren member has an exhibit of baren work and needs assistance (not everyone can absorb the unexpected and sometimes costly expense of mounting an exhibit) we have a bit of money to help pay for this. We have about $400 in the bank at this time, almost enough to pay for the web site for 2004. I think we can decide together what we want to spend money for, in the meantime I am taking very good care of it and in case a truck runs over me, Wanda is also a signer on the bank account and sort of knows what I am doing with the mall. We also have a stash of Yamaguchi paper that is paid for and several cases in each size that are also paid for. We are almost a real business. Of course all labor is volunteered and I don't always remember to pay myself for postage and shipping.....but It is a good cause and I consider anything I donate to be going to the baren awards account to encourage young woodblock printmakers. We gave one last year at the University of Georgia in conjuncition with an exhibit. I think it was for $50. We will be paying for the empty calendar pages with baren funds. I do not think there will be a problem selling these calendars on the baren....I can think of about 10 people I want to give them to for Christmas already. It will be a pretty nice gift for very little money. But perhaps you are right and we should take a poll....most people who participate will want to buy a couple at least and I think I can get a few sales at the gallery of the Northwest Print Council. Anyone else have any ideas on sales? The prints will be returned to the artists if the calendars do not sell, this is the reason they will be tipped in with corners and not glued to the page. Julio, do you have anything to add? Best to all, Barbara Jean Womack wrote:Printing 100 prints for a calendar is a Herculean task, it seems to me. I'd like to know what the expenses of the baren forum are that these are raising money for, and how you are going to sell the calendars? The last time someone asked me for an edition of prints that we were supposedly going to exchange as a group (not in Baren) and then sell, it went into her flat files and they are still sitting there. That was about seven years ago. Is there a point when, if they don't sell, they are divided among the participants? Obviously you would have to sell them before the end of next year. ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:58:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baren 21053] frame space, etc Maria, I liked your idea of using the wood as a spaceer. I solve this in a different way so will describe it as best I can. I mount my work in the center of the matt, using archival tape. I build strips of foam core about 1" wide and two deep around the outside edges of the matt board. I cut a "frame" matt that covers the edge of the foam core and is about 1/4-1/2" larger than the image and sits on top of the foam core and goes against the glass. This sandwich of matboard, foam core and matboard allows the work to be away from the glass and float. This works well for me and I like the look of a matted piece in the frame that is away from the work. This sounds strange when I reread it but it really looks good. A gallery in Texas framed my work this way for a show about 10 years ago and as soon as I saw it, I said "YES" this looks great! They had used colored mats, but I use all white or off white as I figure if people want colored mats they can take the work to a framer and change it. Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: "Gillyin Gatto" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:59:59 -0500 Subject: [Baren 21054] address/intuitive messages from prints for Ira Greenberg in NY state - - - your SHEEP post card has returned " undeliverable" do you have a new address at which it could reach you? Patti P-C --what fun ! i agree with your description on - continuing- obstacles in life there are always more it seems.......and lots more determination! but you and Ruth have reminded me of an interesting idea: if the artist is concentrating on her image/theme/intent as she draws/ carves/ prints, does this message get transmitted to the viewer intuitively ? sort of like that great mexican novel LIKE WATER FOR CHOCOLATE where the woman was an artist in cooking-i believe magic spells are also communicated through prints, precisely because there is so much HAND WORK going on, when someone else views the work, all that' stuff' literally leaps off the page at them-- an example of my own: i did a solstice card in '96 -a tribute to my oldest dog who had passed on . since i put him down myself ,i had been unable to cry because i had to "be strong', but when i had drawn " BIG NEWF" on my piece of birch plywood , I began to cry at last and the tears rained on the block- i send my solstice cards to about 80 people and many many many told me later that when they opened it up ,they burst into tears! even those who never knew the dog or that he had died one can see this print at my web site -if you need a good cry ! www.gattowoodcuts.com/Prints/cd3.htm anyone else with similar happenings ? YES Ruth Leaf !! you are so right-- so how is it that the viewer "knows" how we feel ?? others artist with missions I would add-- Kathe Kollwitz and Friedensreich Hundertwasser for Jack Reisland yes I do know of the" heifer project" and have their catalog -- thank you ! Gillyin in Maine which is melting!! ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:21:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baren 21055] printing question Gillyin, I could not open your address.....maybe there is a mistake in the url. Dave, I think this question is for you, or maybe Mike or maybe anyone else with lots of experience. I am reading the book recently purchased from McClains entitled "Moku Hanga (woodblock printmaking) by Akira Kurosaki and translated to english by Asuka Yamaguchi. So I have two books, one a translation in black and white and one in vivid color in Japanese. On page 82 they are showing using a roller with oil based ink in the middle of a hanga print to do a bokashi, saying that the oil based ink gives a very sharp edge. Is this something that happens very often? I was pretty surprised to see this. This is a wonderful how-to book with great color separations and really shows the blocks. Not as good as Dave's lessons, but pretty good. I think it is worth owning. On page 58 they show using an L-shaped block to slide the printing block into if there is no room on the block for the kento. They also suggest nailing it down so it won't move....maybe double stick tape would work, hard to nail to a formica table. This would sure allow one to use smaller blocks and keep the edges clean when printing, my bain of exsistence. Dave, what do you think of this? Have you ever used such a registration block? I have one that Matt Brown made but it is much different and has little fingers to hold the block in place. Sorry for three posts in one day, but I want an answer to this....I was so amazed to see oil mixed with the hanga. Guess I am narrow in my thinking here, it is a problem with us printmakers, we want to stick to certain "rules". Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez#walgreens.com Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:26:59 -0600 Subject: [Baren 21056] Re: Selling calendars, baren expenses Jean Womack writes: >Printing 100 prints for a calendar is a Herculean task, it seems to me. >I'd like to know what the expenses of the baren forum are that these are >raising money for, and how you are going to sell the calendars? Dear Jean, you have a very valid question which I will attempt to answer for the whole list. Long post. Please read the info on the signup page and my last calendar update where it mentions that "any unsold prints will be returned to the artists". Printing 100 prints on the night of September 14th, 2003 would indeed be a Herculean task but since the work period is about six months (twice a normal exchange)...I don't see a problem. We can spread our printmaking and do four batches of 25 prints, or two of 50...or one print every other day till we get them all done if that's what we like to do. Regardless, I have not asked for 100 prints yet....but just thrown some suggestions out....50 calendars seems too few to make as when we give the freebies back to the artists we would be left with only thirty or so to sell from each format.....while we don't want to be left holding a large quantity of these, we would want to accomodate as many members who want to purchase some to give away as presents to their families and friends w/o putting a purchasing limit. Sometimes I feel pushy if I offer someone my prints as a gift...but a calendar like this would be both an utilitarian gift and a way to promote our OWN printmaking. I will collate and put the calendars together once....but I don't want to spend my holidays putting additional stuff together or going back to the printers because we sold-out early. Knock on wood(block)! The calendars will be for sale first to our members via the Barenmall...and perhaps after a week's grace period, they could be made available to non-members as well. Members who run galleries, framing shops or other businesses can request a number of calendars to be made available for sale thru them (Baren will cover shipping expenses). Any prints not sold will be returned to the artists. Any prints not sold will be returned to the artists. Any prints not sold will be returned to the artists. I think I have said that already a few times {;-) I will not be making any digital reproductions of these works. If you want to purchase one and then make digital copies to give to friends and family I would caution you that all copyrights are held by the individual artists and that it is probably a no-no unless you get prior permission. Besides the real value of these calendars is the hand-printed art/efforts of our members. Thanks Barbara for your input, you have done an outstanding job running with all the administrative stuff and probably lot of people don't realize all the different hats you wear for our group. Thank You ! We also own approx 100+ glass frames which were used at one time or another in five different Baren exhibits (Skokie Public Library I & II, ES Ohio & 911 Palatine). These frames were paid by members contributions from exchanges 1-4 and are awaiting your use. I have a large number here (Skokie, Illinois) of both the 11X14 and 16X20 size and Gayle Wohlken has another bunch in Ohio. Baren expenses come in many forms which may not be apparent to us all. For sure there are the upfront operating costs Barbara mentioned for running the barenforum.org list, the maintenance upkeep on our various domain names, the running of the barenforum.org website (server space and maintenance fees ?) and perhaps some minor charges for operating the shopcart for the Barenmall. For the most part and since our first year all these expenses were paid by one member and ONE member only....David Bull. For the last two years or so, the Baren council has started to take over these expenses with money raised from the Barenmall sales. Currently I believe Baren has approximately $300-400 or so in funds. There are also many other expenses not often mentioned. For example, the barenmall offers for sale Yamaguchi-san paper to our members at a very reasonable price. This is accomplished by Baren purchasing and importing a large batch of paper from the maker in Japan. This paper is not available from the maker in small quantities. But we make it available to our group in as few as single-sheet orders. The money needed for each order placed and shipping has been upfronted by Barbara Mason and Wanda Robertson since we started importing this product. You can do the math, but the paper is expensive and the minimum order is several hundred sheets. Is a big chunk of cash ($). The paper sells well, our members get the best paper available for printmaking and Barbara and Wanda don't make any profit for their work. Baren should be upfronting the money for this. Another example. John Amoss, our resident illustrator, has done many jobs creating logos and such that grace our site and newsletters. John is a professional illustrator and has his own company. Most recently John designed and had commercially printed a barenforum.org color brochure for our group. The brochure was made available to the public at the last SGC Conference and at the [Baren ] Portland exhibits run by our members. I don't believe we have reimbursed John for the expenses of printing these COLOR ($) brochures. The brochure was featured in our May 2002 barensuji newsletter: http://barenforum.org/newsletter/issue08/issue08.html Another example. While most participants in our exchanges mean well, in just about ALL exchanges a few people forget to send in return money or don't send enough. This is sometimes a problem for people outside the United States, the cost of sending money is sometimes ridiculous. Most exchange coordinators have had to put of their own money to get the print packages out and pay for packaging. Had it not been by the generositiy of other members who sometimes send in an extra $5 or $10 to help out.....the losses to our volunteer coordinators would have been prohibitive. Baren should provide assistance when needed. Another example. The current ongoing "What is Baren ? puzzle project was very well received and is a great example of how our members initiative are making our group grow. Maria Arango's fantastic idea literally drew lurkers out of the woodwork {;-) . While she is willing to run with many of the costs of this project, IMO Baren should be carrying the costs for her materials, paper and shipping costs. Another example. The upcoming Baren Summit in Kansas City is another great idea by Mike Lyon who manages our Exchange program. While Mike has graciously donated the space for this free get-together-workshop, unavoidably there will be some expenses that I think our group or the participants should carry......don't know..... materials, proofing paper, samples for sale from the tools on the mall, paper towels, soap, pop, coffee, etc, etc. Re the calendars, hopefully they will sell, the low prices (for real prints) advertised were a consensus from your input on the list. There are certain expenses such as commercial printing, paper, binding and display stands (for desktop version) that I am running with. Currently researching paper costs with several companies. Wausau makes a 65lb (175gms) paper called Astroparche which has a nice feel and look. It comes in 8.5X11" rims (250 sheets) and also in 23X35". I have been quoted $7.50 a rim for the smaller size and we would need five rims to print the 7X7" sheets for the 100 Postcard calendars. The larger size can be cut into four 11X14" sheets for our Prints-only calendars. Here is a look at this paper option under consideration: http://www.wausaupapers.com/see/see_ap.htm Also negotiating price and minimum quantity on a 7X7" clear flexible pvc display stand that will hold our postcard-desktop calendar upright. I have asked for a wide (as in "custom" order ) internal dimension of 1/4" (.80 gauge) so that you can hold all 13 sheets (12 months + cover) inside. Cost will run approx. .50-60 cents per stand. Looking at a minimum order of 100 to keep costs down. Unsold stands become the property of Baren and could be used for future projects. If the calendars sell well and Baren makes a nice profit, I will accept reimbursement for those expenses only. If the project fails it is my loss and I will not burden Baren with any financial expenditures. Any other questions feel free to post to the list or email me off-list to calendar#bareforum.org. thanks....Julio Rodriguez (Skokie, Illinois) ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V22 #2163 *****************************