Today's postings

  1. [Baren 23514] Re: originals (MccarthyDb #
  2. [Baren 23515] Sol Lewitt (Margaret Szvetecz)
  3. [Baren 23516] Re: Karen Kunc's printing technique ("Amanda Yopp")
  4. [Baren 23517] Re: originals (Mike Lyon)
  5. [Baren 23518] Re: originals (b.patera #
  6. [Baren 23519] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V25 #2464 (Dec 6, 2003) (Sharri LaPierre)
  7. [Baren 23520] Sol Lewitt (Barbara Mason)
  8. [Baren 23521] Re: originals (ArtfulCarol #
  9. [Baren 23522] Re: originals (Julio.Rodriguez #
  10. [Baren 23523] is it even art? (FurryPressII #
  11. [Baren 23524] Re: is it even art? (MccarthyDb #
  12. [Baren 23525] Re: originals ("Alain Cislaghi")
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Message 1
From: MccarthyDb #
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:35:13 EST
Subject: [Baren 23514] Re: originals
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and what about an artist like Sol Lewitt? Supposedly he sends directives
halfway around the world and confers a yea or nay on the finished piece when it
arrives. I feel. as does John Center and many others, that there is an inherent
"soul" or spirit to a work and that the work is directly affected by the
attention it recieves. Not the only component of course, but important nonetheless-
maybe it is different philisophically for minimalists? bobette
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Message 2
From: Margaret Szvetecz
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 06:07:10 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Baren 23515] Sol Lewitt
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I would put Sol Lewitt (whose work I actually do like) in a different category than artists who use workshops to produce prints or studio assistants to help produce paintings or sculpture.

The point of Sol Lewitt's work is that he pushes process and minimizes the personalization of the "artist's hand"; he's pretty much a conceptual artist. Because he has a good eye (as many artists who specialize in process do), the works, at least the ones that I've seen, are actually quite attractive, almost decorative.

Margaret Szvetecz
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Message 3
From: "Amanda Yopp"
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:25:19 -0700
Subject: [Baren 23516] Re: Karen Kunc's printing technique
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I also love Karen Kunc's work and have taken a workshop with her. Her style
really opened my eyes to printing possibilities.

About the topic at hand: I worked a Tandem press (Madison,WI) for a bit
and learned a little about the printing process (at least at Tandem). While
they usually pick painter's or sculptures (or even film makers like David
Lynch) to create prints for, they work in "tandem" with the artist's as much
as possible. It is truely the artist's vision because they proof and
re-proof til they get everything exactly to the artist's liking. The
process before the printing takes as much time as the printing. And some of
the artist's spend weeks there like Judy Pfaff. Her prints are amazing and
complicated. So it's not always such a "cold" process. Alot of heart and
soul goes into those prints, not only from the artist but also the master
printer and their assistants. I had a different outlook before working
there. I also think by bringing artist's of other mediums to printmaking
they are not only educating those artists' about printmaking but perhaps
giving printmaking a little more status.

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Message 4
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:27:13 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23517] Re: originals
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I've been struggling a bit with the "Master Printed" vs. "Self Printed"
question myself lately, as I consider enlisting the assistance of a master
printer to produce a suite of intaglio prints of my images -- I can make
images a LOT faster than I can make prints! But I think I must wait
(perhaps forever) until demand for my work exceeds my ability to produce --
that's what happened to all those Brand Names like "Andy Warhol",
"Picasso", "Leroy Nieman (yuck, yuck!)", etc.

The question seems to partially be something like, "Does the object by
itself have intrinsic value?" Of course the answer must ultimately be that
"value" is always subjective or imaginary. It is only an "idea" and has no
existence independent of our human consciousness. A print, after all, DOES
exist independently from us (as bonded vegetable fiber, etc.). Even with
that in mind, we might begin a tiny change in the "art market" by
encouraging artists and art-marketeers to make clear which objects are
"self-made", which are made in "collaboration", and which are "made to
order" with the goal of increasing demand for "self-made" objects at the
expense of "made to order" objects even though the "made to order" (master
printed) objects may be better crafted.

In 1920, Hashiguchi Goyo's studio made the most wonderful woodblock
reproductions of late 18th Century master Utamaro's designs. The prints
are pretty spectacular -- perhaps an improvement over the originals -- and,
of course, they sell for a tiny fraction of the price of the originals
(even an original in poor condition would command a much higher price than
any of these pristine 83 year-old reproductions)... You can see a few of
this Goyo series up for auction for the next week or so (auction ends
Monday) at:

Just rambling, I guess...

Mike Lyon
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Message 5
From: b.patera #
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 16:54:30 +0000
Subject: [Baren 23518] Re: originals
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So, the master printed print is sort of the computer print of it's day???? :-)

Barbara P.
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Message 6
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:59:16 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23519] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V25 #2464 (Dec 6, 2003)
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Indeed Andy is somewhere laughing his soup can off. This is exactly
what he was all about and Pop Art was all about: commercialism and art
and where does one stop and the other begin? You go, Andy!!

Wanda, we must get you an assistant, your comments are a cry for help!
LOL Collaboration is as old as art itself. I suspect that those cave
artists were not working alone! Her assistant was at her left (ode to
the lefties of which I am married to one) grinding pigments, clearing
straws, sharpening twigs, making brushes, and, in the case of
petroglyphs, chipping away on the walls, following the artists image.
So, it's heritage, guys, we are forced to live with it. The idea of
the individual artist working alone is a 20th century phenom.
Personally, I say bring on the assistants, I want one. And, I want him
young, handsome, buff, obedient, in his speedo, . . . What? You guys
think you're the only ones who think that way???? :-o Back to
woodblock talk.................

Happy Printing,
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Message 7
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:22:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23520] Sol Lewitt
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I had not seen much of Sol Lewitt's work and your post send me on a hunt for it...I was impressed. It is always interesting to see an artist's vision and wonder at the thought process. I liked the large woodcuts I found, they remind me the Koyoto contemporary prints, lots of color and strong black line.
Thanks for sending me hunting. I think this is one of the nicest things about baren, suddenly you are introduced or reintroduced to artists you would not have looked for. It is a great education in itself. I think it takes more than a good eye, it takes a good brain with a good eye. I too found this work very appealing and wished I was looking at the real thing.

If you really want to get work done, you better get an assistant that is not quite so buff!
I have sure hired assistants when I have had a lot of work to do....just for a pair of clean hands, but that is using a press. I am unsure how an assistant could help with hanga, maybe to mix ink or just clean up the studio....that is what I really need help with! I say we all deserve a bit of help!

Mike, Thanks for the link to the auction..that was sure fun to see all that work! I had to sit on my hands not to bid. HA.
Best to all,
Barbara M
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Message 8
From: ArtfulCarol #
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:08:46 EST
Subject: [Baren 23521] Re: originals
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Assistants or not?
It all depends on what your purpose is
If I had my choice I would rather stay in the studio and do the , carving,
printing, claeaning and have an assistant do my cooking ,shopping, cleaning
than the other way around. Wouldn't we all? I do art to learn more,
challenge myself, and have a good time.

PINXT under a print means I drew it, I carved it, I printed it . At the NY
Museum of Modern Art I saw a print , I don't remembr who it was by and carved
around the sides of the print was" I drew it, I carved it, I printed it "
Name of printer is buried in my notes.Maybe Sol Lewitt .Does anyone know.?

At the end of the day does the aritist (?) who counts the money rolling in
and who has an assistant do everything say "Is that all there is?" as Peggy
Lee asked? Hmmmm....

I have the former Madison Ave. adman referred to by Wanda, and I am a
leftie. Is there something to that?

Thank you for the Goyo Prints, Mike -- very beautiful

Rambling on, on a blizzardly day
Carol L.
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Message 9
From: Julio.Rodriguez #
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:21:22 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23522] Re: originals
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Evanston Hospital, where my wife Maria spent a great part of October has
on display the complete series of ten silkscreen prints called "Vanishing
Animals" by Warhol. The prints were made in 1983 and are quite large and
eye catching. They have a certificate of authenticity on display next to
the prints. These prints have been there for years...out on the halls for
all the visitors/patients to enjoy...been there since the mid 80's at
least as I remember them when my son was born there in 1986. They also
have a nice collection of Matisse's lithos.

This last time Maria was in the hospital she had the benefit of a worker
who has a taste for everytime he would take her out for a test
somewhere in the hospital she got an art lesson on the prints and the
artists involved.

Here is a curious writeup from the North Texas Institute that compares
Warhol's "Vanishing Animals" to the work of japanese master Hokusai.

thanks..Julio Rodriguez (Skokie, Illinois)
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Message 10
From: FurryPressII #
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:04:12 EST
Subject: [Baren 23523] is it even art?
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If it was not considered art by the maker, is it even art? The concept of
art did not exist when the cave man marked his wall. And the wood cut in Japan
was not considered a high form of art. Nor was the wood engraving considered
art either. Both were viewed as commerical printing. Wood blocks were
used to print text as much as pictures in Japanese books. In fact the Shugan
would have been just as happy if wood cuts did not exist in the first place.
How many different censorship laws existed just because of wood cuts.

john center
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Message 11
From: MccarthyDb #
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:27:57 EST
Subject: [Baren 23524] Re: is it even art?
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if a woodcut falls in the forest and nobody hears it still a woodcut?
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Message 12
From: "Alain Cislaghi"
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:41:47 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23525] Re: originals
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I'm now in Beijing, my time is limited by the budget I allocate to net cafe
stuff, but I'll try to spit out my concise take on originality:
In the printing process, especially the manual, rough type, many small wonders
and mistakes happen in the process and I believe they become intrinsecally
part of what makes each print different from another. So, the printer leaves
his mark on each print. If I wanted a printer's work with the most integrity
possible, then I'd only want a print he printed himself. If I only wanted
the nice image, then I'd find a digital version on the net and make a damn
laser printing, not even caring'bout the relief found on "real" prints, since
it wouldn't even be the artist's own relief (mistakes'n wonders).
So, to me, prints that aren't entirely the product of the carvin'artists
are not that much different from simple glossy posters: it's not bad, but it
doesn't have the same properties at all, so it caters to different people, or
at least different desires/needs.


I'm somewhat of a leftie too, btw... I do lots of things the right handed way, but I write
and carve as a leftie.